The True Distance of a Typical Gunfight

BAM-BAM said:
Our Police Dept put on a "Civilian Police Academy" for PR

One of eight classes was a computerized simulation shoot no shoot.... everyone got a different situation to address........ 25-30 students each with a different situation to respond to........ of the class only one aced the scenario they had to address. "moi" I fired 5 rounds at two "perps" 5hits two dead perps. ranges were about 20ft across a pickup truck and 3-4 ft!

IIRC about half the class had concealed carry permits. Many just froze or made bad decisions or had slow OODA loops
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On a computer, I would just shoot them all and let God sort them out. ;)

I hope that in real life I would be more discriminating. I carry every time I leave the house, I would not draw for any reason except that my or my wife's life was in immediate and deadly jeopardy. I ain't protecting Walmart's cash register, I ain't shooting at a bad guy holding a hostage, I won't try to tell who is the good or bad guy in another gun fight, and I won't shoot at somone stealing my car. (as long as I am not in it) I don't want to be a cop I just don't want to be a victim.
 
biku324 said:
I know of only one on-duty shooting where no lawsuit was filed in the 3 agencies (2 small, one 700 commissioned personnel) in which I worked; of non-officer SD shootings of which I have substantial personal knowledge, 100% of the shooters were sued.
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We have vastly difference experiences, I have also worked large metro and a smaller department. My city is highly violent, and OIS are almost routine. Homeowners get sued on a regular basis in your area? It’s a freak event when that happens here, even in liberal land. As far as cops getting sued, I’m sorry you had to go through that, but QI should have you well covered. I have not been sued, though plenty of others have.

Either way, being sued shouldn’t be a deciding factor. If the shooting is just, for LE or anyone else, then it is just. If it’s not…. Just say no.
 
Frank Black said:
In the context of “civilian gunfights” outside the home - i.e., legally-armed citizens forced to draw and defend themselves against a street attack - these are virtually always very close-range affairs: inside 21-feet/7-yards, or less.

That’s where the smaller, fast-to-deploy guns shine. At those distances it’s literally draw, point, and shoot.

Arguably you don’t even need sights since you won’t have time to use them.

Colt 3” New Agent, .45acp

View attachment 765023
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Ahh yes, the 3” .45acp. The bullet that doesn’t expand. Forget reliably expand, it just doesn’t expand. We tested a few of the upper end duty rounds, and they were all as useless as ball ammo. Better than nothing, but still not good.
 
ETMJR said:
Only all about YOU.
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If his mindset is failure by way of default, that is on him. I’ve met plenty of comment similarly, or make ignorant jokes. I’ve also met hundreds who were victims that wished they had been able to protect themselves but had nothing. Tell the people who were raped, beaten to death, assaulted, shot, robbed etc etc all about how they just want to “fantasize”…

It’s easy to talk tough, or crack jokes on the internet. I’ve never met a guy cracking those jokes after his wife was victimized.
 
New Mexico is one of the most litigious states in the nation. You deal with what you have.

Cops have risk management liability by their employer - nobody sues cops personally because they mostly have few assets. A homeowner has 1) a home or some home equity, 2) homeowners insurance, 3) a job and credit or they couldn't own a home. Poor people in rentals don't get sued much.

Q: What do police divorces and tornados have in common?
A: Someone will lose a trailer.
 
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I'm not going to worry about getting sued. As said above, I don't want to be a cop; I just don't want to be a victim. If the shoot is justified, that means I or a loved one was in dire peril. A lawsuit is the least of my worries. We intend to come out of the encounter undamaged and breathing.
 
SGT ROCK 11B said:
Good shoot or bad shoot? You know that is a world of difference there. Your right, your right. You wrong and you will pay on many levels.

That is why I suggest Professional Training for the tenderfoots here.
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Sometimes, even if it was a good shoot as far as the court is concerned, you still have to get a lawyer to get there. And then there is the almost inevitable Civil Suit.
 
Stickgunner said:
Ahh yes, the 3” .45acp. The bullet that doesn’t expand. Forget reliably expand, it just doesn’t expand. We tested a few of the upper end duty rounds, and they were all as useless as ball ammo. Better than nothing, but still not good.
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It’s loaded 7+1. …. First round out is a 230grn+P JHP. The remaining rounds are FMJ.

They all fall to hardball.
 
SGT ROCK 11B said:
Having lunch can be a shootout. (as I recall one of the 23 victims had a pistol in his truck's glovebox)

gettyimages-50593614-1024x674.jpeg
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Suzanna Gratia Hupp, SHE had the gun in her truck. Here is her story
 
Frank Black said:
It’s loaded 7+1. …. First round out is a 230grn+P JHP. The remaining rounds are FMJ.

They all fall to hardball.
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I like these, and they are functional as ball at the same price. Coyotes don't like them at all.

Winchester RED45 230 grain
FMJFP

1000008345.jpg
 
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Sgt. Buzzard said:
About those gas station gun fights and situational awareness. Does that gas pump blast out loud ads when the pump starts? Look at the pump. The screen that has instructions should have four touch screen "buttons" down each side of the screen. If you push the second button down on the right hand side that will be the mute button. Try it , it will be much harder for anyone to sneak up on you. I consider those blasting ads a dangerous distraction. Turn them off.

Another thought on the gas stations. my wife doesn't carry. I've taught her to keep that pump handle in hand. Wonderful close up and
personal weapon should you be attacked.
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When you say weapon, do you mean of itself or to squirt gas on an attacker. I have often thought if threatened it would be an interesting situation if the attacker with a gun were to be hosed down with gas and then decide if he wants to fire off a round or two.
 
hald said:
When you say weapon, do you mean of itself or to squirt gas on an attacker. I have often thought if threatened it would be an interesting situation if the attacker with a gun were to be hosed down with gas and then decide if he wants to fire off a round or two.
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You may be basing your assumption that the criminal might have the sense to understand the warning. I might hose one down, but it will be with lead.
 
hald said:
When you say weapon, do you mean of itself or to squirt gas on an attacker. I have often thought if threatened it would be an interesting situation if the attacker with a gun were to be hosed down with gas and then decide if he wants to fire off a round or two.
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Oh, I definitely mean squeeze that handle and shoot half a gallon on the perp. Preferably on the face if he has any weapon whatsoever. I'd bet he would be so surprised he'd jump back trip/ fall on his butt and be crying. That's about the time to totally hose him down.

I've seen so many little old ladies hurt so bad in robberies that I would be without remorse, if something bad should happen.
 
oneeyedpete said:
Police officers have qualified immunity. They can still get sued, but the burden of proof is high
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Numerous states have now removed Qualified Immunity from Police Officers, including my home state of Colorado. 28 years in LE (25 with the Colorado State Patrol) and the day the Governor signed the "Law Enforcement Accountability Act" I put my retirement date on the calendar for the FIRST day I was eligible. It was, and IS, a HORRIBLE bill. The CSP lost well over 100 officers that year (they only had about 750 to begin with.) My local Troop lost 8 out of 19 to retirements, going to other departments in other states, and some just giving up and quitting Law Enforcement in general.
 
MoparTrooper said:
Numerous states have now removed Qualified Immunity from Police Officers, including my home state of Colorado. 28 years in LE (25 with the Colorado State Patrol) and the day the Governor signed the "Law Enforcement Accountability Act" I put my retirement date on the calendar for the FIRST day I was eligible. It was, and IS, a HORRIBLE bill. The CSP lost well over 100 officers that year (they only had about 750 to begin with.) My local Troop lost 8 out of 19 to retirements, going to other departments in other states, and some just giving up and quitting Law Enforcement in general.
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Eh, one could also argue that the police abused their qualified immunity immensely and thus had it stripped to preserve accountability in their actions.
 
One could.... but that one would be wrong.
Q.I. is hugely misunderstood by that general public. Most think that ANY actions are protected from liability.
Truth is the Officer's agency decides if he/she was within policy or not. Q.I. applies if the actions were within policy; if not then the LEO is on their own to defend the lawsuit and or criminal charges. (our D.A. loved to charge LEOs)
 
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