THE VALUE OF POINT SHOOTING

[Rastoff]

Once more thing:

suzieq, as we have talked about in the past, I believe you can do what you say. The vast majority of point shooters don't, won't, put in the practice you have.

I would still love to go shooting with you.

 

[keith44spl]

I think the reason that point shooting has fallen out of favor with L.E.
is all the work involved in getting officers qualified these days. Not very
many are 'gun guys & gals" some departments have had to go to smaller
calibers and low recoil rounds just to get the rank and files qualified.


From my own personal experience and close observation, most
at least in the state agency I've work and shot with,
are not the greatest of marksmen.


I came out of the old school, I can point shoot,
can use aimed fire to my advantage at various ranges.
I once downed 10 of 10 steels rams at
two hundred meters standing off hand, from the Weaver stance with a S&W 29.
All disciplines adds to ones repertoire.


Fixed stances and aimed fire is all well and good. It's kinda like
having a guitar and cordin' & strumming along and singin the song.
But, if you are a real guitar player and can pick it....Cause as the ol adage goes,
"If a guitar picker really picks it good, he picks a Fender!"


Point shooting / instinctive shooting has been in my world for over half of a century.
When, as a boy we had long bows and handmade arrows, later recurve bows and
store bought cedar arrows, none had sights.
My first firearms were hand me downs, some times the sight
were worn down, filed down, or just plain missing.



I learned to shoot with these relics. The first revolver I acquired was a well worn Colt SAA,
a 45 Long Colt with a percent or two of it's original finish. A point shootin son of a gun for sure.
Whether instinctive point shooting is a natural hand eye thing or a practiced skill.
It has served me well for many years.


That is all.

 

[ExcitableBoy]

DAVE:

What I'd say is that you seem to have a problem with semantics and a mindset firmly locked in concrete. Again, you seem to be totally ignoring the stated scenarios and the physiology of the human eye. A bright light, even momentarily, will destroy night vision. And that bright light, or laser, will give up your defensive position. Do you think someone who has broken into your house at O-dark-thirty might be slightly wired and ready to put a shot on that light in an instant, or is he just going to pose nicely so you can get that pretty sight picture? Going into a two-handed, fully upright and square to your target, Weaver isosceles or not, and firmly planting your feet stance, then bringing your handgun into firing position in the dark without a sight picture... Well, if you can't SEE the darned sights, exactly what is it you think you were doing? Sighting, or point shooting? Squaring off and giving someone the largest target possible is Hollywood cowboy stuff and utterly foolish within the parameters proposed!

Your own example proves the point. And for SD/HD purposes, I for one would do my utmost best to never present myself broadside in such a situation. Were you ever taught to shoot from cover, or have heard the term "get small"? As a Range Officer, have you ever taught such a thing to anyone? If not, I would propose a great dereliction of training/duty on ANY department neglecting the concept. Paper scores don't necessarily equate with how anyone reacts to being in a situation in which one must try to preserve his own life.

Yes, I asked for input and opinions, NOT dogma and doctrine chiseled in stone. Shooting should be a flexible and adaptive thing, and you are obviously closed minded to anything other than what you KNOW AS A FACT (Earth used to be flat, too!), rather that considering what you might learn. Brings to mind the know-it-all Bubbas and Sidewalk Commandos of that CC class of which I mentioned.

I lean heavily on the sides of those who have traveled a far longer and rougher road than thou when it comes to the shooting craft. Long live Applegate, Keith, Fairbairn, Jordan and their brethren.

AR BT KKKKKK Over and out!

 

[shouldazagged]

Reminds me of some graduate school seminars I attended. They rarely produced a hell of a lot of agreement either, but often got testy.

 

[Houlton]

IN 1979 I went to the S&W Officer Survival School. The emphasis was on point shooting fast and accurately.
By the third day 15-20 ft center hits were no problem from the holster. From the Jordan Border holster there was
no problem getting the first 2 off in the K5 in less than a second. (unsnapped) The last day they put you inside a 3 sided box.
There were 3 targets behind you at different heights. They pinned a badge on one. The lights were turned down to almost nothing and
turned your back to the targets..
On command you drew turned picked the non badge targets and put 2 rounds in each. Most did it in 4-5 seconds. 2 Md. 
Troopers did it in 3. Masaad A. wrote he did it in 3 but shot the badge. I wouldn't have bragged about it. I practiced what they
taught my whole career. As an instructor practice ammo wasn't a problem but I would have done it if I had to buy or reload my own.
At qualifications I could guarantee every shot in the K5 up to 7yds and never look at my sights with revolver or 92g. It takes practice
but once you get used to doing it point shooting 15 to 20 feet is no problem.   

 

[Rustyt1953]

I agree with BK and Rastoff in that at "hey!, there's spinach in your teeth" range I practice belly shooting. At 6 to 10ish feet I practice point shooting as if I were pointing at a passing beer truck.

I learned this way and am at home with it. If someone else is more adept at shooting backwards with a hand mirror then good on them. The object being to survive.

I've been given things to think about and not think about in this thread and I believe that was the intended purpose of this exercise.

Carry on.....smoke 'em if ya got 'em.

 

[ExcitableBoy]

"I've been given things to think about and not think about in this thread and I believe that was the intended purpose of this exercise."

RUSTY:

FINALLY... You busted it right in the "X"!!!

 

[Cyrano]

Suzieqz: Some of the ranges here are like this and we can shoot at whatever distance we want. This is me shooting one of the internet snubby monthly matches.

 

[rwsmith]

We all have different......

We all have different chances to train and how to train. I don't have a pop up target course to test my mettle and the targets don't shoot back. I'd like to repeat that in spite of some ruffled hairs that this debate is extremely valuable. Everybody's boat that they have to float is different.

I'll either need to turn on a light or have a big flashlight. I don't see too well coming either into bright light or the dark and I'm NOT going to go shooting in the dark, unless I see spurts of flame coming my way.

I told the story before about the SEAL who said that when he drew his gun he start firing at the perp's feet as he drew up his gun up He might hit something and even if he doesn't getting shot at is going to throw a person off.

One thing the point and shoot as shown in the FBI video is how the shooter drops and moves to the right. I doubt if I'd be able to accomplish it though.

I don't shoot and get shot at for a living, so all I can do is train for different scenarios. I believe that once I have all the lighting, stance and draw down pat the next huge problem is hesitancy to shoot in an instant. I can't train for that.


PS George Carlin did show us how to 'get small'.

 

[digiroc]

Instinctive, Point Shoot, and Aimed Fire, All in One ...

We all have different chances to train and how to train... Everybody's boat that they have to float is different...

I told the story before about the SEAL who said that when he drew his gun he start firing at the perp's feet as he drew up his gun up He might hit something and even if he doesn't getting shot at is going to throw a person off... [emphasis mine]

I don't shoot and get shot at for a living, so all I can do is train for different scenarios. I believe that once I have all the lighting, stance and draw down pat the next huge problem is hesitancy to shoot in an instant. I can't train for that...

I'll take all the advantage I can get if it ever comes to a gunfight.

My preferred self defense weapon will have night sights, laser, and holo sight, grenade launcher optional but desired.

Of course all of this would be cumbersome to tote around as EDC so compromises need to be made.

Concealed carry is a prerequisite, as any advertisement of being armed is effectively placing a target on your back.

What you can carry and what you will carry is a decision you should make early on. Everything is a trade-off. Size, weight, effective power, and accuracy in the hands of the holder.

Getting to the point: Ending an armed attack, once it has begun, is all about shot placement. Having said that, avoiding such a dire situation through a well developed situational awareness when simple avoidance (don't go there!) is not possible. These two factors are anyone's best defensive practice.

Response Time: Smooth is Fast, but speed is of the essense. In my own case I train in all of the above disciplines. I train for a triple tap. First shot is going to be pure instinct, not at the feet, but at center mass. Second shot will be point shooting as I acquire the front sight in center mass (I like "Big Dots"). The third shot will be fully aimed fire, a headshot if available.

digiroc

EDIT: As has been posted above in other words: "No battle plan survives contact with the enemy" and the above does not mean I will be a stationary target. i.e. Weaver Stance in bulls eye aiming mode. Situational awareness is especially important as the situation will always be fluid. I'll move to available cover, establish clear shooting lanes, and a multitude of other factors as they come up.

 

[star1]

Point shooting ? Ever hear of Taran Butler ?
Grand Master Taran Butler Hip Shooting 6 plates 1.98sec. Broke his personal record. - YouTube
Taran butler on impossible shots - YouTube

 

[Lee's Landing Billy]

Depends on what you call "point shooting". Almost all of what I see called point shooting involves bringing the gun up to at least mid-torso height. At that point, the gun is prominent in your peripheral vision, so you are actually visually aligning the gun, just not with the sights, like Mr. Skins here.

This method has been thoroughly disproved as a quick & effective way to hit your target for many decades now, mostly thanks to Mr. Shirts, a.k.a. Jack Weaver. And remember these competitions were "Leatherslap" contests, which placed a premium on short & fast, the point shooting home field.

There have been many old time police officers, back when hip-shooting was still taught (I wonder why nobody does that anymore? Hmmm...) who couldn't understand why they missed their man at a few feet when they had qualified expert on the range. If being good at point shooting just requires more practice, I'll direct you back to Mr. Shirts, who ran the range for the LA County Sheriff's Department and had his fill of ammo and range time.

When this subject comes up I always mention Thell Reed, I'm sure old-timers will remember him. This guy would hip-shoot steel chickens at 50 yards with an SAA, but when he was shooting seriously, he brought the gun up to eye level and used both hands. If you feel you're better at hip shooting than someone who reliably hits 4 out of 5 chickens at 50 yards, please do continue.

The Laza Hatas always confused me, but just recently a report from someone re-qualifying for their LTC gave me some insight. People who are used to shooting at a range, where they start the firing process by picking up a gun off the bench, don't try to understand lasers, because they start off with their focus on the gun. IRL, your focus is on the threat. Switching focus back to the sights is one of the hardest things to teach & apply under stress. With a proper grip-activated laser, which is off until the gun's on target (same as a grip-activated light), when you bring the gun to bear, there's a nice dot on your target. You ride right past the whole "How much of a sight picture do I need?" debate and go straight to makin' holes.

Electronics failure? Ok, it's not like the irons fall off the gun when you install a laser. If there's no dot, then I just continue with the process. Whether that means a vague outline of the gun over the target, or a nice refined squared away sight picture, depends on the target and it's distance.

Coupla things about this picture. Last spring I spent a while talking to Jack Weaver's son. He sells these posters with his Dad's autograph. He also said most people had no idea what the Weaver Stance was. Jack's idea was simple, use two hands. That was the totality of his system.
Also, notice in the picture Jack has fired and look at his shooting hand. He shot so fast that he didn't have his shooting hand all the way on the model 14 he used.
Standing behind Jack with only his hat exposed is Elden Carl, kneeling between the shooters is Jeff Cooper. Jack's son is on the hill. Looks to be about 5 or so.