Things I have heard

cracker57

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I thought I would start a thread about what I have heard regarding getting shot at and what happens to your mind.
Most of what I have heard has to do with LEO's that have been in gunfight.

Most do not know how many rounds the fired back.

one Leo stated he thought someone was throwing trash cans at him, after all was over he realized it was the cases from a fellow officer flying by his face.

you will do as you train, I have heard that during a gunfight some officers found they were picking up their brass as they did during training. Some departments no longer let the officers pick up brass because of this.

of course we have heard about tunnel vision and audio disconnect.
This is why it is important to look both right and left for additional threats and to break the tunnel vision.

Of course one needs to take what they have heard with a grain of salt.

so what have you heard about ones mind set while being shot at?
 
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This may not be an appropriate discussion. Inviting others to add misinformation or disinformation from rumors to the thread may cause more harm than good.

I'm sure many members have experienced some traumatic event in their lives that may still haunt them. These events are like brain-stains.

One of my jobs on our department was working with officers who had been involved in shootings or other stressful events. I was a member of our state's regional Critical Incident Stress Management Team and attended several national conferences in Baltimore and conferences in my state and others.

That said, most of the internet discussion on the topic of post traumatic stress reactions or responses - flying brass turning into garbage cans - goes to the diagnostics of PSTD - the disorder. Most people experience many potential events that never materialize into PTSD.

A shocking moment in an event could create a stress reaction but not become debilitating. It might cause a person to avoid certain things that create unpleasant thoughts or feelings.

It is helpful to examine an event - ASAP - for the points that caused surprise or shock, frustration, loss of control of others or things, and the most humorous part of the event. Focusing on a humorous moment tends to be important for personal resolution.
 
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Thoughts on a few related topics.

1) No one really knows how they will react to a truly life threatening situation until they are in one. Some folks border on panic, or full on panic. Others get very focused and become very intentional in their response.

The more often you are exposed to intensely stressful situations the better you will probably react in the real deal and the more likely you are to respond in a more focused and intentional manner. That's the benefit of regular, repeated, realistic training that creates as much stress and time pressure as possible.

Similarly, it's also why individuals who have survived prior life threatening situations tend to perform better in subsequent situations and first timers.


2) No one "devolves to their training". They devolve to their lowest level of *fully mastered* training. It's why so many officers devolve to poking their service pistol in the general direction of the threat and pulling the trigger as fast as they can. It's what underpins a miss rate of about 80% nationally, and with even the best departments out there still having miss rates of about 50%.

The average police officer isn't a gun person and doesn't shoot more often then they have to to meet minimum qualification standards 2 to 4 times a year.

I recall a training session where we reviewed dash cam footage of a VA state trooper. During a traffic stop the perpetrator exited the vehicle as the trooper approached and began firing. The trooper returned fire but suffered a malfunction. At which point he raised his hand to attract the range officer's attention and looked over hos shoulder for the range officer.. That's devolving to your lowest level of fully mastered training.

It was the last thing he ever did. That dash cam footage made it clear that the VA state police had a serious training problem as that trooper did exactly what he was trained to do, even though it wasn't what the VA state police intended to train.

It safer on the range for an inexperienced officer to get the range officer's attention and assistance in a malfunction, but there is no free lunch. Greater range safety comes at the expense of realism and trains the wrong response in a crisis.

3) I hear "it's useless to learn to use your sights a police officers don't use them". It's true that about 80% of the time officers don't recall using their sights. But there are two opposing explanations for this:

- many experienced drivers are un aware of using their blinkers. It's just something they do every time they turn at an intersection.

If someone trains to bring the handgun up into their line of sight, place the front blade on target and then adjust their grip to align the rear sights before pulling the trigger while maintaining the sight picture and does it long enough to master it, they'll use their sights when shooting fast and under extreme stress. They'll do that because muscle memory in their well developed gripped will keep the rear sights aligned enough for combat accuracy purposes with no conscious thought and the person will also be in the habit of ensuring the front blade is on the target even when focused on the target under stress. But it takes a lot of disciplined practice and repetition to get there, to be able to do it at speed, and have it be their lowest level of fully mastered training.

- More often the officer doesn't recall using their sights because they just didn't use them. That's not a justification to not bother using your sights, it's a indictment against poor and inadequate training of police officers.


4) I got into counseling as a profession after I left law enforcement and I have pretty strong opinions about PTSD. I worked for a time with the VA about 15 years ago and I was not impressed by what I saw. I had a supervisor who was extremely proud of his contributions post 9-11, where he provided services to numerous Twin Towers first responders and by his own description forcing the, to talk about their experiences. Even in 2001 research was pretty clear that survivors of traumatic vents should be encouraged to talk about their experiences and feelings, but not until they are ready to talk.

Not wanting to think or talk about those experiences, especially with someone who does not share the same common bond, is a valid and important psychological defense mechanism. When people are ready to process the events, they'll talk about it. It's counterproductive to try to get them to talk before they are ready and increases the potential for PTSD.

The VA facility where I worked also had a PTSD program and the person in charge operated under the premise that PTSD was a permanent condition that people could learn to function with but would never recover from. As someone who had had PTSD I regarded that as pure non sense. I saw it as taking vets, effectively crippling them, and making them dependent on long term services rather than treating them.

Unfortunately the counseling profession is awash in counselors who got into counseling to deflect or avoid addressing their own issues. A university with an ethical counselor degree program, will weed out students who have their own unresolved issues and who have no business helping other people. But there are a load of programs out there that will just take students money and confer a degree if they pass the academics with no real screening process during the internship segment of the program.
 
Having been in an OIS, can attest to tunnel vision doing it's best to take over. Also, it was indoors and auditory exclusion was very evident. .38 Spl. +P's sounded like far-off 'pops'.

Also, time and space took on an eerie, difficult to describe observation that things were happening VERY fast, yet also had a 'slow-motion' perception simultaneously. - Again, very difficult to describe.
Believe the term is "Tachypsychia".

Gives you dream material for many years.
 
Instead of getting into a long draw-out thread that will not doubt contain some erroneous information, research stuff like this;

Sympathetic Nervous System (SNS): What It Is & Function

And also the 'Inverted U Theory/Hypothesis (as it pertains to training/survival);

MindTools | Home

It's difficult, and arguably unethical, to have a couple counseling degrees and not caution people about relying on potential junk science, or inadequately contextualized and under qualified science found in an internet article.

That said, one of the values of understanding the sympathetic nervous system and responses to high stress situations is to better understand how a suspect will react in a high stress situation.

A human body cannot remain in an adrenaline charged fight or flight state for more than about 20 minutes before it has to come out of that mode for some basic housekeeping (liver function, etc). It may only be a brief period of time, but as a police officer that's the lull you are looking for to deescalate a situation.

Not enough officers understand that or employ tactics to take advantage of it, even when delays in calling 911, and police response times mean the suspect is very close to that 20 minute mark when their arrive. Assessment all too often takes a back seat to a desire to assert control and end a confrontation by any means necessary before the officer fully understands what is actually going on.
 
There's another thread here " What is the most threatening self defense situation you..."

Lots of stories posted. Very few by posters with the shield identification. Do you wonder why that is? I'm a retired sergeant. 18 years FA instructor, 16 years assigned
planning and training with a side assignment to SRT. Shooting Response Team, investigating police involved shootings.

I have a number of close friends here in the community that are also retired cops, deputies, FBI and other government agencies. When we get together over lunch and tell war stories its always "can you top this, stupid people stories ". Really never about the personal trauma involved on the job. We've all seen it. We've all lived it. It's what you think about now and then on sleepless nights.

It's not always TV like shoot outs. Maybe it's picking up a dead baby that was tossed out of a third story window. The public really has no idea.

I'll leave it at that.
 
I have never participated in a gunfight but I have been in the wrong place at the wrong time and got caught in the middle of somebody else's gunfight four times.

The first one I talked about in the other discussion. I seem to remember standing up from my chair in the living room and running down the hallway to wake up my other roommate and telling him "Oh my God Karla just shot Jeff." He sat up in bed and yelled down the hallway "Keep GD the noise down I'm trying to sleep!" I ran out the front door and called the police. I'm guessing at our neighbor's house.

The second one was (I'm guessing) a drug deal that went bad. I was at work, I did exactly what I was supposed to do I observed and reported. I got down behind somebody else's car and I called it in.

I wrote about the third one here I was out walking my dog and somebody started shooting at the in the parking lot at the end of the sidewalk. I was cleaning up after my dog when the shot started and I remember thinking to myself, because I was still reaching down to pick up the poop with the little dog poop bag, "Screw this I'm getting out of here."

I drew my gun and I moved me and my dog up against the building where I was in the shadows and I started backing away from the shots. When I got to the end of the building I called the police.

The last one I was putting my stuff in my car to go to work and I watched this guy in a scream mask walking through the parking lot. Then he went through a hole in the fence behind the dumpsters and I saw him messing around with something back there and then I heard a gunshot. I remember thinking to myself to get down behind the engine block of the car and not the trunk. I drew my gun and about that time he came running back through the fence with his hands up and I started yelling at him and asking him if he'd been shot if he was okay and he acted like he couldn't even hear me and when he got 20 or 30 ft away from the dumpster he turned around and ran. I never saw him again.

Two guys tried to rob me outside my house one night on my way to work. It was dark I was wearing a black uniform I had on a black gun belt and I was carrying a black gun. I don't think they realized I was armed until I stepped out from behind the car with my hand on my gun and told them that maybe they should leave. They laughed at me. Then they started walking away and when they were 15 or 20 ft away from me one of them turned around and told me to screw off (spelled with a capital F).

And the last one was I was at work one morning and I had to kick a bum out of Pinello Ranch and he didn't want to go. He started cussing at me and he told me he was going to get an ax out of his shopping cart and kill me with it and the whole time I'm on the radio with Security Dispatch asking them to send the county sheriff. When the guy finally turned around with his ax I was standing next to my car shaking up a can of OC spray.

He know I had a gun on and he didn't care in the least but when he saw me getting ready to spray him with that spray, he dropped the Ax like it was hot.

The Deputies showed up a minute or two later and took him to detox.
 
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