Things to do BEFORE a shooting

[jrd1976]

Call your homeowners insurance agent BEFORE you need to know. Ask if you are covered for "Intentional Tort", which in layman's terms means commission of an intentional act against someone, such as a self defense shooting.

Are you covered if the intentional tort does not take place on your home property?

Your homeowners insurance may cover your defense costs, in the unlucky event you have to defend yourself, either in a criminal or a civil proceeding.

That was the advice of a local attorney at a recent CCW class here in Louisiana.

Any comments CajunLawyer?

 

[jrd1976]

Call your homeowners insurance agent BEFORE you need to know. Ask if you are covered for "Intentional Tort", which in layman's terms means commission of an intentional act against someone, such as a self defense shooting.

Are you covered if the intentional tort does not take place on your home property?

Your homeowners insurance may cover your defense costs, in the unlucky event you have to defend yourself, either in a criminal or a civil proceeding.

That was the advice of a local attorney at a recent CCW class here in Louisiana.

Any comments CajunLawyer?

 

[cshoff]

In Missouri, as per RSMo, Chapter 563:

Justification as an absolute defense, when.

563.074. 1. Notwithstanding the provisions of section 563.016, a person who uses force as described in sections 563.031, 563.041, 563.046, 563.051, 563.056, and 563.061 is justified in using such force and such fact shall be an absolute defense to criminal prosecution or civil liability.


2. The court shall award attorney's fees, court costs, and all reasonable expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant has an absolute defense as provided in subsection 1 of this section.

In other words, if you are justified in your use of force, even deadly force, you are exempt from any criminal or civil liability.

That said, I recommend that everyone do several things in advance:

1. Avoid areas or situations that may put you unnecessarily in harms way. If you hang out with "questionable" people who take part in "questionable" activities, you are placing yourself at risk. Likewise, being in a "bad" neighborhood when you don't have to be is not wise either.

2. Seek out proper training. Good training can only make you more responsible, more profficient, and better prepared in the moment of truth.

3. Have the number of an attorney you can depend on already in the speed dial of your cell phone. Also keep his/her card in your wallet in case you are without your phone. Some people like to use a permanent marker and write the number on the back of their CCW permit. Make sure you have an evening/night number for this attorney as well.



Following the advice in the OP is a good idea as well, especially if you are in a state that does not have laws that provide protection from civil liability in justified force situations.

 

[Alk8944]

Originally posted by jrd1976:
Call your homeowners insurance agent BEFORE you need to know. Ask if you are covered for "Intentional Tort", which in layman's terms means commission of an intentional act against someone, such as a self defense shooting.

Are you covered if the intentional tort does not take place on your home property?

Your homeowners insurance may cover your defense costs, in the unlucky event you have to defend yourself, either in a criminal or a civil proceeding.

That was the advice of a local attorney at a recent CCW class here in Louisiana.

Any comments CajunLawyer?

DON'T call your agent and ask him!!!!! He isn't an attorney and his opinion is just that, his, and an opinion, not fact.

What you should do is find your Homeowner's policy and check the exclusions. A basic tenet of insurance is: "If it isn't excluded it is included". Unless this is specifically excluded then you should have coverage. What you need to be concerned with is the "Criminal acts" exclusion. If your action which results in injury or death is determined to be a criminal act AND deliberate then you have a problem with coverage.

All this is why you need to read YOUR policy from YOUR insurer and written for a risk in YOUR state. Usually and generally mean nothing when dealing with insurance issues, just the language of the policy currently in effect. The policy isn't just a set of guidelines for what may be covered, it is a legal and binding contract between yourself and the insurer.

If, after reading your policy (contract) you still are uncomfortable or have questions then contact a competent insurance attorney practicing in your state and have him review the policy and give his opinion. If his opinion is incorrect and you sustain a financial loss as a result of following his advice then you have an actionable cause against him for which he carries a Professional Liability (Errors and Omissions) insurance policy to protect him from catastrophic financial losses is such cases.

In case you wonder what I do, I am a retired police officer (21 years service) who has been in the insurance business for the past 19 years since retirement.

 

[Haku]

That is why I live in TEXAS

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

Originally posted by Alk8944:

Originally posted by jrd1976:
Call your homeowners insurance agent BEFORE you need to know. Ask if you are covered for "Intentional Tort", which in layman's terms means commission of an intentional act against someone, such as a self defense shooting.

Are you covered if the intentional tort does not take place on your home property?

Your homeowners insurance may cover your defense costs, in the unlucky event you have to defend yourself, either in a criminal or a civil proceeding.

That was the advice of a local attorney at a recent CCW class here in Louisiana.

Any comments CajunLawyer?

DON'T call your agent and ask him!!!!! He isn't an attorney and his opinion is just that, his, and an opinion, not fact.

What you should do is find your Homeowner's policy and check the exclusions. A basic tenet of insurance is: "If it isn't excluded it is included". Unless this is specifically excluded then you should have coverage. What you need to be concerned with is the "Criminal acts" exclusion. If your action which results in injury or death is determined to be a criminal act AND deliberate then you have a problem with coverage.

All this is why you need to read YOUR policy from YOUR insurer and written for a risk in YOUR state. Usually and generally mean nothing when dealing with insurance issues, just the language of the policy currently in effect. The policy isn't just a set of guidelines for what may be covered, it is a legal and binding contract between yourself and the insurer.

If, after reading your policy (contract) you still are uncomfortable or have questions then contact a competent insurance attorney practicing in your state and have him review the policy and give his opinion. If his opinion is incorrect and you sustain a financial loss as a result of following his advice then you have an actionable cause against him for which he carries a Professional Liability (Errors and Omissions) insurance policy to protect him from catastrophic financial losses is such cases.

In case you wonder what I do, I am a retired police officer (21 years service) who has been in the insurance business for the past 19 years since retirement.

Really can't add anything to the above.

 

[J274895]

You mean I can't walk down the streets in North Portland with ten dollar bills hanging out of my pockets?

 

[cmort666]

Originally posted by cshoff:
1. Avoid areas or situations that may put you unnecessarily in harms way. If you hang out with "questionable" people who take part in "questionable" activities, you are placing yourself at risk. Likewise, being in a "bad" neighborhood when you don't have to be is not wise either.

+100,000,000

Most people needlessly find their own trouble, then seem baffled afterward.

I don't like stupid people.

Avoid stupid people.
Avoid the places where stupid people congregate.
Avoid the activities that stupid people pursue.

You will avoid 95% of trouble. For the remaining 5%, go armed whenever possible and be willing and able to shoot that trouble in the head until it's no longer a threat.

My sole exception to this rule is my once a year trip to Chicago at Christmas to see my elderly mother. I have no friends there at all, much less "questionable" ones. That means my only trips into dubious areas involve taking relatives home after Christmas dinner. I'm fully prepared to use my mother's automobile as a deadly weapon. The Army taught me that the proper way to respond to a near vehicular ambush is to drive through (ie. OVER) it. An attempted carjacking is a textbook example of a near vehicular ambush.

 

[The Last Standing Knight]

Originally posted by cmort666:

Originally posted by cshoff:
1. Avoid areas or situations that may put you unnecessarily in harms way. If you hang out with "questionable" people who take part in "questionable" activities, you are placing yourself at risk. Likewise, being in a "bad" neighborhood when you don't have to be is not wise either.

+100,000,000

Most people needlessly find their own trouble, then seem baffled afterward.

I don't like stupid people.

Avoid stupid people.
Avoid the places where stupid people congregate.
Avoid the activities that stupid people pursue.

You will avoid 95% of trouble. For the remaining 5%, go armed whenever possible and be willing and able to shoot that trouble in the head until it's no longer a threat.

My sole exception to this rule is my once a year trip to Chicago at Christmas to see my elderly mother. I have no friends there at all, much less "questionable" ones. That means my only trips into dubious areas involve taking relatives home after Christmas dinner. I'm fully prepared to use my mother's automobile as a deadly weapon. The Army taught me that the proper way to respond to a near vehicular ambush is to drive through (ie. OVER) it. An attempted carjacking is a textbook example of a near vehicular ambush.

cmort, I'd like your permission to use your "stupid people" comments. They fit the areas I often have to work in and am thinking about making a t-shirt with those comments on it!

 

[cmort666]

Originally posted by The Last Standing Knight:

Originally posted by cmort666:

Originally posted by cshoff:
1. Avoid areas or situations that may put you unnecessarily in harms way. If you hang out with "questionable" people who take part in "questionable" activities, you are placing yourself at risk. Likewise, being in a "bad" neighborhood when you don't have to be is not wise either.

+100,000,000

Most people needlessly find their own trouble, then seem baffled afterward.

I don't like stupid people.

Avoid stupid people.
Avoid the places where stupid people congregate.
Avoid the activities that stupid people pursue.

You will avoid 95% of trouble. For the remaining 5%, go armed whenever possible and be willing and able to shoot that trouble in the head until it's no longer a threat.

My sole exception to this rule is my once a year trip to Chicago at Christmas to see my elderly mother. I have no friends there at all, much less "questionable" ones. That means my only trips into dubious areas involve taking relatives home after Christmas dinner. I'm fully prepared to use my mother's automobile as a deadly weapon. The Army taught me that the proper way to respond to a near vehicular ambush is to drive through (ie. OVER) it. An attempted carjacking is a textbook example of a near vehicular ambush.

cmort, I'd like your permission to use your "stupid people" comments. They fit the areas I often have to work in and am thinking about making a t-shirt with those comments on it!

If it saves just one life...

 

[cshoff]

Originally posted by cmort666:
+100,000,000

Most people needlessly find their own trouble, then seem baffled afterward.

I don't like stupid people.

Avoid stupid people.
Avoid the places where stupid people congregate.
Avoid the activities that stupid people pursue.

You will avoid 95% of trouble. For the remaining 5%, go armed whenever possible and be willing and able to shoot that trouble in the head until it's no longer a threat.

My sole exception to this rule is my once a year trip to Chicago at Christmas to see my elderly mother. I have no friends there at all, much less "questionable" ones. That means my only trips into dubious areas involve taking relatives home after Christmas dinner. I'm fully prepared to use my mother's automobile as a deadly weapon. The Army taught me that the proper way to respond to a near vehicular ambush is to drive through (ie. OVER) it. An attempted carjacking is a textbook example of a near vehicular ambush.

Well said, cmort!

 

[Smitty500Mag]

Originally posted by jrd1976:
Call your homeowners insurance agent BEFORE you need to know.

That won't do it. Your agent can tell you anything he wants to but if it's not in writing it's not worth the paper it's written on.

We lived in the mountains one time and my wife checked with the insurance agent to see if our house was covered for mud slides, rock slides etc. Oh yeah, he told her you're covered. I told her that don't mean anything if it's not in the policy. I got the policy out and it was no where in there. I called the main office and told them what the agent said and told them I don't see it in my policy. They said that's because your not covered for those items is the reason it's not in your policy. I called the idiot agent up and told him what I thought about him and dropped the insurance and bought some from another company.

Smitty

 

[Alk8944]

Originally posted by Smitty500Mag:

Originally posted by jrd1976:
Call your homeowners insurance agent BEFORE you need to know.

That won't do it. Your agent can tell you anything he wants to but if it's not in writing it's not worth the paper it's written on.

We lived in the mountains one time and my wife checked with the insurance agent to see if our house was covered for mud slides, rock slides etc. Oh yeah, he told her you're covered. I told her that don't mean anything if it's not in the policy. I got the policy out and it was no where in there. I called the main office and told them what the agent said and told them I don't see it in my policy. They said that's because your not covered for those items is the reason it's not in your policy. I called the idiot agent up and told him what I thought about him and dropped the insurance and bought some from another company.

Smitty

Smitty,

Read my first post above. Earth movement, earthquake and flood are IN your Homeowners policy, You will find them in the EXCLUSIONS. That means they are not covered, but they are mentioned. Unless it is a policy form which I have never seen before the mudslide, earth movement and flood are not covered by your current policy either. What you need is a Catastrophe policy, most of which are written through a Lloyd's company. If all you are worried about is mudslide, then you need a Flood policy. If you want just Earthquake you need an Earthquake policy, and if just Flood you need a Flood policy. If you want coverage for all the perils you named you need a Catastrophe policy. Any of these will probably cost as much as your Homeowners policy did, but you need both.

Ask your current agent (really broker) and ask him about this. If he doesn't know what you are talking about get on the internet and Google "Trusted Choice Agents" and start looking for one who does know this.

 

[jkc]

I don't like stupid people.

Avoid stupid people.
Avoid the places where stupid people congregate.
Avoid the activities that stupid people pursue.

Thanks alot! Taking your advice means I'll have to give up: driving on urban freeways, driving on rural freeways, driving on surface streets, flatwater boating, visiting the Post Office, the DMV, the County Assessor's office, and most Planning and Zoning offices, State Fair, County Fair, casinos, rodeos, truck pulls and most motor sports events, commercial wrestling, cockfighting, voting, and a host of other activities too numerous to mention. You've pretty much ruined my social life, recreational pursuits, mobility, and turned me into a recluse!