Think about it, friends.

Status
Not open for further replies.

LoboGunLeather

US Veteran
Joined
Nov 20, 2008
Messages
7,941
Reaction score
34,524
Location
Colorado
I see lots of postings with opinions about the best guns, best holsters, best ammunition, best tactics, etc, etc, etc.

I hope a few of you will take the time to think about all the issues involved in lawful concealed carry, well beyond having the latest, most powerful, highest capacity, highest velocity, deadliest, etc, etc, etc.

We carry our handguns because we have become enlightened to the threats and hazards posed by life in modern America. I carry car insurance with no intention of having an accident. I carry homeowners insurance with no hope that my house will burn down. I carry a pistol, not because I intend to get into a fight to the death, but because if a fight is forced upon me it will be better to have it than not to have it.

Events involving lethal force occur in two stages.

Stage one takes place very quickly, with little or no warning, and is usually over in a matter of seconds. The object of the exercise during this stage is PHYSICAL survival.

Stage two takes place over the course of several years. During the first few weeks or months there will be a very serious investigation of the incident itself, of all the individuals involved in the incident, all of the circumstances attending the incident, and all of the items used in the incident. The object of the exercise is LEGAL survival to this point. My advice is this: LAWYER-UP immediately, strap on the baddest lawyer you can find, keep your mouth shut, and let the pit bull do your talking for you.

Stage two continues, hopefully after the grand jury or coroner's inquest (or whatever other procedures are used in the jurisdiction wherein said incident occurred). You can expect to have a visit from a nice process server who will bring you the greetings of the courts, requiring you to respond to the claims of the "victim" and/or survivors of the nice people who have suffered unduly from your malicious/willful/negligent/unlawful use of a weapon resulting in death/bodily injury/property damage/psychological damage/loss of consortium (look it up)/etc/etc/etc. The object of the exercise now is financial survival. The advice is (a) lawyer-up immediately, say nothing to anyone other than your lawyer, express no opinions or thoughts on the matter except as directed by your lawyer; and (b)call your liability insurance company (most homeowners insurance policies contain personal liability coverage, make sure yours is as high as you can afford because the "victim" and/or everyone related to him/her is looking to reach deeply into your pocket as a means of alleviating the terrible consequences they are now having to live with because of the actions of the "victim" and your choices based solely upon self-interest. Your liability carrier will assist in your defense because they do not wish to have to pay any damage awards).

You can be absolutely sure that all of your actions will be under scrutiny and attack for months, if not years. Your background, your experiences, your job history, your mental stability, your decision to carry a weapon, your perceived need for self-defense, your reasons for being where you were when you were there.

Certain to receive great scrutiny will be your selection of sidearm, your firearms training and experience, your selection of ammunition, your method of carrying and concealing your weapon.

I genuinely sympathize with the poor SOB who selected a weapon based upon its lethal capabilities, or the dumb SOB who has had his pistol modified in any way/shape/form from the way it was manufactured, or the nutcase who chose ammunition that is significantly greater in lethal effect than some other ammunition that was readily available (especially anything with "magnum", "+p", "high velocity", "hollow point" or other red flags for that nice liability lawyer to grill him about on the witness stand.

God bless the guy whose pistol received glowing recommendations in a gun magazine, or whose ammunition was featured in 'Soldier of Fortune' or some other rag. Please have absolute pity on the poor unlucky guy whose shot went astray and hurt a bystander.

I think you have the picture by now, so I will close with just a few thoughts for your consideration.

Selecting a handgun and ammunition that is in general use by local, state, or federal law enforcement agencies is not a bad idea. Lots of research has been done, and can be brought to court to support the selections made.

Document all of your training, along with the certifications and qualifications of instructors. Keep a record of your practice sessions (a simple notebook can work, with dates and total times, number of rounds consumed, etc).

And I hope that I have remembered to say "LAWYER-UP" and "KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT".

Being under psychological treatment yourself for post-traumatic stress related to the incident FORCED UPON YOU by the dead/injured party may not be a bad idea. Everything related to such treatment is completely confidential between you and the provider, and it gives your lawyer a means of quickly ratcheting up the defense when the other side becomes aggressive in questioning.

Here ends the thoughts of a two-tour Vietnam vet and 24-year retired copper who has carried a gun just about every time he's been out of the house for the past 40 years. Been there, done that.

I SINCERELY HOPE THAT NO ONE WHO READS THIS WILL EVER NEED TO EXPERIENCE THESE THINGS FIRST HAND.
 
Register to hide this ad
I see lots of postings with opinions about the best guns, best holsters, best ammunition, best tactics, etc, etc, etc.

I hope a few of you will take the time to think about all the issues involved in lawful concealed carry, well beyond having the latest, most powerful, highest capacity, highest velocity, deadliest, etc, etc, etc.

We carry our handguns because we have become enlightened to the threats and hazards posed by life in modern America. I carry car insurance with no intention of having an accident. I carry homeowners insurance with no hope that my house will burn down. I carry a pistol, not because I intend to get into a fight to the death, but because if a fight is forced upon me it will be better to have it than not to have it.

Events involving lethal force occur in two stages.

Stage one takes place very quickly, with little or no warning, and is usually over in a matter of seconds. The object of the exercise during this stage is PHYSICAL survival.

Stage two takes place over the course of several years. During the first few weeks or months there will be a very serious investigation of the incident itself, of all the individuals involved in the incident, all of the circumstances attending the incident, and all of the items used in the incident. The object of the exercise is LEGAL survival to this point. My advice is this: LAWYER-UP immediately, strap on the baddest lawyer you can find, keep your mouth shut, and let the pit bull do your talking for you.

Stage two continues, hopefully after the grand jury or coroner's inquest (or whatever other procedures are used in the jurisdiction wherein said incident occurred). You can expect to have a visit from a nice process server who will bring you the greetings of the courts, requiring you to respond to the claims of the "victim" and/or survivors of the nice people who have suffered unduly from your malicious/willful/negligent/unlawful use of a weapon resulting in death/bodily injury/property damage/psychological damage/loss of consortium (look it up)/etc/etc/etc. The object of the exercise now is financial survival. The advice is (a) lawyer-up immediately, say nothing to anyone other than your lawyer, express no opinions or thoughts on the matter except as directed by your lawyer; and (b)call your liability insurance company (most homeowners insurance policies contain personal liability coverage, make sure yours is as high as you can afford because the "victim" and/or everyone related to him/her is looking to reach deeply into your pocket as a means of alleviating the terrible consequences they are now having to live with because of the actions of the "victim" and your choices based solely upon self-interest. Your liability carrier will assist in your defense because they do not wish to have to pay any damage awards).

You can be absolutely sure that all of your actions will be under scrutiny and attack for months, if not years. Your background, your experiences, your job history, your mental stability, your decision to carry a weapon, your perceived need for self-defense, your reasons for being where you were when you were there.

Certain to receive great scrutiny will be your selection of sidearm, your firearms training and experience, your selection of ammunition, your method of carrying and concealing your weapon.

I genuinely sympathize with the poor SOB who selected a weapon based upon its lethal capabilities, or the dumb SOB who has had his pistol modified in any way/shape/form from the way it was manufactured, or the nutcase who chose ammunition that is significantly greater in lethal effect than some other ammunition that was readily available (especially anything with "magnum", "+p", "high velocity", "hollow point" or other red flags for that nice liability lawyer to grill him about on the witness stand.

God bless the guy whose pistol received glowing recommendations in a gun magazine, or whose ammunition was featured in 'Soldier of Fortune' or some other rag. Please have absolute pity on the poor unlucky guy whose shot went astray and hurt a bystander.

I think you have the picture by now, so I will close with just a few thoughts for your consideration.

Selecting a handgun and ammunition that is in general use by local, state, or federal law enforcement agencies is not a bad idea. Lots of research has been done, and can be brought to court to support the selections made.

Document all of your training, along with the certifications and qualifications of instructors. Keep a record of your practice sessions (a simple notebook can work, with dates and total times, number of rounds consumed, etc).

And I hope that I have remembered to say "LAWYER-UP" and "KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT".

Being under psychological treatment yourself for post-traumatic stress related to the incident FORCED UPON YOU by the dead/injured party may not be a bad idea. Everything related to such treatment is completely confidential between you and the provider, and it gives your lawyer a means of quickly ratcheting up the defense when the other side becomes aggressive in questioning.

Here ends the thoughts of a two-tour Vietnam vet and 24-year retired copper who has carried a gun just about every time he's been out of the house for the past 40 years. Been there, done that.

I SINCERELY HOPE THAT NO ONE WHO READS THIS WILL EVER NEED TO EXPERIENCE THESE THINGS FIRST HAND.
 
especially anything with "magnum", "+p", "high velocity", "hollow point" or other red flags for that nice liability lawyer to grill him about on the witness stand.
Interesting post....Concerning the above quote, what about all these pistoleros that purchase ""exotic"" ammo in defense of not penetrating completely eliminating the possiblity of injuring/killing an innocent by-stander. What say you on this point? I have an opinion, what's yours?
 
Originally posted by Big Foot:
especially anything with "magnum", "+p", "high velocity", "hollow point" or other red flags for that nice liability lawyer to grill him about on the witness stand.
Interesting post....Concerning the above quote, what about all these pistoleros that purchase ""exotic"" ammo in defense of not penetrating completely eliminating the possiblity of injuring/killing an innocent by-stander. What say you on this point? I have an opinion, what's yours?
I direct people's attention to Massad Ayoob's new book on CCW.

I couldn't agree with him more that you're going to suffer a LOT more for shooting somebody with an FMJ that does a through and through and hits somebody else than you EVER will for a good shoot with a hollowpoint... or three.

If you're ignorant and you have a lawyer ignorant about firearms, you're toast, no matter what you shoot or whatever you shoot out of it.
 
Massad Ayoob's new book on CCW

+1.
icon_smile.gif


http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=8841068...831036433#1831036433
 
Originally posted by cmort666:
I direct people's attention to Massad Ayoob's new book on CCW.

I couldn't agree with him more that you're going to suffer a LOT more for shooting somebody with an FMJ that does a through and through and hits somebody else than you EVER will for a good shoot with a hollowpoint... or three.

If you're ignorant and you have a lawyer ignorant about firearms, you're toast, no matter what you shoot or whatever you shoot out of it.

Unless of course the guy shooting at you is behind cover and JHPs fail to penetrate the barrier between him/her and you. Or if you rely on the latest and best expensive JHPs ($1 ea) but are never able to afford to actually thoroughly test them, causing your gun to jam up.

My point isn't to say don't use JHPs, but there are lots of variables. Some of these situations might actually make FMJ the best choice in a given set of circumstances.

Most "good" shootings are relatively short affairs - unless something seems odd or out of place - investigations are not going to be all that thorough, esp in an area where is lots of other crime. Castle doctrine states largely take care of the matter for shootings that take place in the home. Many states also immunize someone in a "good" shoot from any civil liability.
 
Originally posted by GatorFarmer:
Originally posted by cmort666:
I direct people's attention to Massad Ayoob's new book on CCW.

I couldn't agree with him more that you're going to suffer a LOT more for shooting somebody with an FMJ that does a through and through and hits somebody else than you EVER will for a good shoot with a hollowpoint... or three.

If you're ignorant and you have a lawyer ignorant about firearms, you're toast, no matter what you shoot or whatever you shoot out of it.

Unless of course the guy shooting at you is behind cover and JHPs fail to penetrate the barrier between him/her and you. Or if you rely on the latest and best expensive JHPs ($1 ea) but are never able to afford to actually thoroughly test them, causing your gun to jam up.

My point isn't to say don't use JHPs, but there are lots of variables. Some of these situations might actually make FMJ the best choice in a given set of circumstances.

Most "good" shootings are relatively short affairs - unless something seems odd or out of place - investigations are not going to be all that thorough, esp in an area where is lots of other crime. Castle doctrine states largely take care of the matter for shootings that take place in the home. Many states also immunize someone in a "good" shoot from any civil liability.
I prepare for the most likely eventualities, not all possible eventualities.

In the overwhelming majority of incidents involving civilians, a JHP of some kind is highly appropriate. When I NEED to use FMJs, using them out of a rifle is an even better idea.
 
I feel the urge to say this every once in a while, so bear with me. If you shoot somebody, the police are not your friends. I know, I AM the PO-LEEECE. Shut up and lawyer up. All you hafta give me is your name.
 
Interesting replies. Please keep them coming. Where some of these opinions differ from my own is at the stage of actually occupying the witness box and being abused by a lawyer for days on end, weeks on end, months on end, and eventually years on end.

Then again, having a multi-million dollar lawsuit filed against you, and showing up on your credit report, makes it so much easier to buy a house for your kids to live in and a car to drive to work.

Bottom line is this: there will be no justice, there will be no peace for those involved. From that terrible moment onward for the rest of your life there will only be scalp-hunters and the scandal-sellers.

Not only do I carry a pistol, I also carry a cell phone with my lawyer's number on speed-dial. As I tried to point out, I not only wish to survive PHYSICALLY, I wish to survice mentally and financially.

Keep up the replies. Interesting stuff here, for those who are capable of thinking. I truly appreciate all the responses.
 
Don't know if it will be a disappointment or comfort but, sure, I've thought about these issues a lot since committing to carrying a weapon more-or-less full-time. I suspect a large majority of us have.
The simple fact is, I hope, most of us hope and expect never to use our firearm(s) in anger. Most of us hope not to use our medical insurance, too. But, in either case, it sure is nice to have the option.
Alas, not everyone in the grand ol' US of A feels that way about me having an option to defend myself vigorously. Or, at least, they don't have the foresight to see things that way. Which, of course, makes the decison to actually do so more difficult and dangerous.
Bottom line, I hope I NEVER have to fire my weapon in anger at another human. That said, I will unabashedly do so if I feel my personal existence, or that of someone I love, requires it to continue.
Does God not require personal responsibility?
 
I believe that God does require personal responsibility. In fact, some of my readings have indicated that a number of religious authorities during the 19th and early 20th centuries actually considered a failure to defend oneself as the same thing as suicide; i.e. a mortal sin.
 
I genuinely sympathize with the poor SOB who selected a weapon based upon its lethal capabilities, or the dumb SOB who has had his pistol modified in any way/shape/form from the way it was manufactured, or the nutcase who chose ammunition that is significantly greater in lethal effect than some other ammunition that was readily available (especially anything with "magnum", "+p", "high velocity", "hollow point" or other red flags for that nice liability lawyer to grill him about on the witness stand.

Can you post some examples of someone who was charged with a crime or lost a civil suit because he shot someone with a .44 magnum instead of a .22 in an otherwise justified shooting? Or a .38+P instead of a "less lethal" round? A lawyer in a civil suit will try to make ANY gun or round look bad. "You shot him with a .22 because they were less lethal and he'd suffer longer with peritonitis, right?" "You shot him with a .40 because that's what the police carry, and you always wanted to be the police but couldn't measure up to the standards, right?" "You shot him with a .38 because that's what the TV Detective whose live you were acting out carries, right?"
 
[/QUOTE]

Can you post some examples of someone who was charged with a crime or lost a civil suit because he shot someone with a .44 magnum instead of a .22 in an otherwise justified shooting? "[/QUOTE]

There is an instance of what should have been a justified shooting in Arizona by a retired teacher who had been attacked by two large dogs and a convicted felon while quietly hiking in the wilderness. A big part of the prosecuting attorney's case focused on the "excessive" power of the 10mm round used. The teacher has been convicted and his case is being considered for appeal.

Round count, type of ammunition, etc... can be a significant factor in a trial.

whw
 
There is an instance of what should have been a justified shooting in Arizona by a retired teacher who had been attacked by two large dogs and a convicted felon while quietly hiking in the wilderness. A big part of the prosecuting attorney's case focused on the "excessive" power of the 10mm round used. The teacher has been convicted and his case is being considered for appeal.

Round count, type of ammunition, etc... can be a significant factor in a trial.

whw
That would be the Fish case. Far from the Norm, it was a fluke. One of Mr. Fish's instructors, J.R. Robie, is interviewed at www.proarmspodbean.com . According to Mr. Robie Fish's attorney was physically ill and not up to the task on providing an adequate defense regarding Fish's choice of caliber or ammo.

I carry a .44 magnum because I wanted the handgun equivalent of a Joe Frazier left hook. Concealed carry is a martial art and there is no reason for a serious shooter to use a cartridge that's dumbed down for your average cop who is a poor shot, intolerant of recoil and only fires his weapon when he is forced to qualify. I'll put it this way, if you don't want your jaw broken by Mike Tyson, don't piss off Mike Tyson. If you don't want 1000 fpe. dumped into your chest don't try to kill me. I can articulate exactly why I use a weapon that powerful and will only use an attorney that can defend me with competence. If they want to compare muzzle energy how much power does a 12 ga. foster slug pack? Why do the police use something so excessive?
 
I don't recall that being a major part of the case. I recall Fish shooting an unarmed guy THREE TIMES for an assault and battery that never happened. He would have been charged and likely found guilty if he'd have shot him with a .38. Of course the proecutor tried to make the gun look a part of the guy's state of mind. His job is to get a conviction if there is enough probable cause to get a warrant. Guy should have taken a plea.

Any others?
 
Originally posted by flop-shank:
According to Mr. Robie Fish's attorney was physically ill and not up to the task on providing an adequate defense regarding Fish's choice of caliber or ammo.

Mel McDonald said…

I was the trial attorney who represented Harold Fish. Contrary to the suggestion that the jury was not educated on self defense training, a nationally recognized expert, Michael Anthony, of Phoenix testified. The jury knew that FIsh had received extensive self defense training. Fish followed his training. The travesty of this case came as result of shocking rulings from the court. We were not allowed to tell the jury about prior dog attacks. We were not allowed to provide specific information about prior deadly attacks by the decedent. We were not allowed to talk about the psychiatric condiction of the decedent, who had several suicide attempts, and who had been hospitalized for his psychiatric conditions. The decedent, a homeless man, lived in the woods. He suffered from PTSD, Agrophoebia, and a number of severe debilitating problems. Judges, retired police officers, lawyers and other citizens were denied any ability to discuss terrifying events that they had encountered with decedent Kuenzli. One was choked and thought he would die.

A woman and her son were held hostage and threatened with death. None of this information of violence was provided to the jury. The conviction and sentencing were a complete travesty of justice. An appellate court will some day reverse this conviction. In the meantime, the defendant, a father of 7, will be taken from his home. It should be noted that the NRA defense fund did provide some financial assistance.

Source for Quote
 
Originally posted by boomstick:
I don't recall that being a major part of the case.

The prosecutor showed large pictures of the 10mm round in court. It was a major part of the case.

Any others? There are many. From ammo type and home loads, to accusations of revolvers being fired in single action. Anything presented in a court of law can turn out to be a "major part of the case." It shouldn't be discounted when your freedom and finances can be at risk.

whw


whw
 
Originally posted by whw:
Anything presented in a court of law can turn out to be a "major part of the case." It shouldn't be discounted when your freedom and finances can be at risk.
What it really boils down to is how we are going to structure our whole self defense system. Are we going to "what if" the legal procedings that will follow a shoot to the point that we're going to compromise our ability to survive the shoot itself? I'm not going to propose an answer to anyone. We must all answer that question for ourselves. As for me, I'm not going to have my security reduced out of a fear of shysters, "what ifs", potential idiot judges, laws or juries.
 
Excellent dialogue! Thanks to everyone who contributed.

As indicated by the title of the posting, my intention was to get people to think. Obviously, that is what happened here.

Throughout my years as a cop there was one saying heard frequently on these subjects: It is far better to be judged by twelve than to be carried by six.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top