Titegroup and the 500

[cloudswimmer]

Hey guys,

I use to buy the .500 defense loads from Bill at Ballistic Supply for my plinking rounds, but he quit making em. So I contacted him and indicated I did have a set of .500 Lee dies and he recommended I get some of the 350gr Berry's plated heads and load em on top of 11gr or so of Titegroup. He also recommended Trailboss as well. So I finally found a local dealer that has both Titegroup and Trailboss in stock and they're holding it for me to pick up this week.

So tonight I was browsing some of the John Ross threads relating to all things 500 for giggles and found this quote:

"I avoid LilGun and Titegroup like the plague. 4759 is my favorite .500 powder for everything except the very heaviest loads."

Now I'm a little spooked on the Titegroup after reading that. I mean JR is like the 500 guru right? Anyone know his reasoning for that, or have a similar distaste for Titegroup? My goal isn't to cook up full house hunting loads, but fun plinkers.

Thanks as always.............Chris

 

[ageingstudent]

Seems like a lot of empty space in there with the tightgroup. Lots of potential for a double charge and probably widely varying ballistics due to powder position. I use n105 or 4227. Haven't tried trailboss yet for a plinkers load but it probably works. Ought to fill the case better for sure.

 

[9mmsubgun-m11]

I have loaded a little over 600rds of 500mag with 350gr Berrys and 11gr of TiteGroup, Win large pistol primers and had excellent results. Friend of mine was over a couple nights ago and loaded his first 150 rds using same load. As with reloading anything you need to devote all of your attention to the task at hand. TiteGroup is NOT position sensitive.

 

[ruggyh]

Discussed in the past.

Simply, the peak pressure is reached immediately meaning you cannot use much powder and little increase in load means large increase in pressure. Numerous revolvers have been destroyed by these powders from overcharged cartridges.

Since the charge weight and volume are so small it's easy to create excessive pressure and Kaboom.

Don't care how careful you are it can happen.

I have yet to see any pressure data from a SAAMI manufacture or lab endorsing these powders for the 500 or 460. conditions

If you are looking for reduced load use powders designed to prevent over pressure conditions like TrailBoss or TinStar

Be safe and good luck
Ruggy

 

[ageingstudent]

I have loaded a little over 600rds of 500mag with 350gr Berrys and 11gr of TiteGroup, Win large pistol primers and had excellent results. Friend of mine was over a couple nights ago and loaded his first 150 rds using same load. As with reloading anything you need to devote all of your attention to the task at hand. TiteGroup is NOT position sensitive.

I like it in 380acp lol. I just put 12 gr in a 500 case just to see what it looked like. It looks so far away in there. I bet that's a nice shooting load but I like more powder in there.

 

[Rule3]

Well answered in post #4!

Titegroup is just a super fast powder and not a good choice for any MAGNUM load even "plinking" loads what ever those are in a 500 Mag?

Use Trail Boss less chance to little of you blowing up something. Just don't compress it.

 

[cloudswimmer]

Win large pistol primers

You mean LR primers don't you? Im using new Starline brass and CCI large rifle primers. Anyhoo thanks everyone. Ill just pick up the Trailboss tommorow. Any favorite heads you guys like with Trailboss? I was thinking about trying some of Matt's 335gr truncated cone as well as the Berry's.

C

 

[BLUEDOT37]

Max loads with Trail Boss are pretty slow. Make sure they meet your needs. You can't overfill or crush Trail Boss.

Hodgdon's max Trail Boss load for a 370gr L-GC is 12.0/grs= 926fps @ 19K psi.

On reduced loads that you know the pressure of you can safely use large pistol primers for. The above 19K psi load is surely safe with LPPs. I've used CCI-300 on reduced loads just fine.

Hornady #8 lists a note on their 350gr XTP, & 500gr XTP, 500 S&W loads stating: "Note: This data developed for use with large pistol primers only." When I asked them if I used LRP instead did I need to adjust my loads, from what they listed, they said "No". Seems odd doesn't it?

.

 

[alwslate]

Well answered in post #4!

Titegroup is just a super fast powder and not a good choice for any MAGNUM load even "plinking" loads what ever those are in a 500 Mag?

Use Trail Boss less chance to little of you blowing up something. Just don't compress it.

Yes as mentioned above this has been discussed before and
always results in posts like this. I'm not trying to single out
any one particuliar poster, just using an example. The problem
is that the opinions of the poster in response to a question
are in direct contradiction to pressure tested published data.
For just one example the Lyman 3rd edition Pistol and
Revolver handbook has an article by Brian Pearce on loading
for big bore revolvers, including the .500, with loads for
Titegroup and praise for the accuracy attained. Additionally
the load tables have loads for .44 magnum with Titegroup.
If I can read this info in the manuals why can't others?

 

[Rule3]

And always results in the writings of the Reloading God Brian Pierce in some magazine.

But then on the other hand someone will mention near max fill of the case capacity.

Use Titegroup it really doesn't matter to me, if there is data for it, then it must be good, right?

If or when a double charge happens I hope everyone is OK and even the big SW 500 may survive.

 

[Rule3]

I forgot to add this. Look at the Hodgdon data

Set your sights on pistol reloading data | Hodgdon Reloading

Also a plated bullet is a poor choice for any magnum, Ya sure rely on neck tension alone as you can not put much of a crimp if any.

Hodgdon with a 359 gr XTP bullet calls for a range of 39.9 to 43.0 grans of H110. Max pressure is 50,600 psi with max load.

Now with Titegroup the range is 11.0 to 18.8 gr with a max pressure of 50,000psi.

So if the case will hold that much H110, how well will you be able to see 11 grains of TG (or any super fast powder)

Pressure is not linear so what happens with a slight overcharge or double charge of TG??

You make the call.

Sure if you are absolutely certain of your powder charge and stay away from the max load of TG then all will be well.

A plated bullet and TG in the SW 500 just seems like a poor choice.

Set your sights on pistol reloading data | Hodgdon Reloading

 

[venomballistics]

I would not want to use any powder faster than CFE Pistol in this cartridge.
over the past two years. TG has been in about 80% of all the blown guns and ruptured cases I've seen in this time frame.
Yes, it probably is human error with a likely dash of product quirk, But apparently for its frequency of occurrence, its easy to do.

See what you can find for powders like ..
CFE pistol
Power Pistol
BE86
Unique
Universal
AA#7

 

[spearcrow]

As has probably been said already here, in my usage of Titegroup I found that it didn't take up much room in the case. And because of that it would be very easy to double charge a case. I never did, but I sure kept a close eye on it. I also did load 500 mag with it and like it just fine, but I also use my single stage press instead of my progressive press, just go slower and keep a better eye on things.

I also tried out trailboss with the 500. I was told that you could fill the case with it and it still wouldn't be too much. I liked the idea of not having to worry about too much pressure, but I'm not sure how much performance was lost.

In the end I used mostly Titegroup with a sprinkling of some others for the 500.

 

[Fishslayer]

Everybody with the DOUBLE CHARGE!

It's a rare fast powder that won't fit a double load in a .500 S&W if you're putting together plinking rounds.

I would probably go with a medium powder like BE86 or Unique but that's just me.

 

[MyDads38]

I use TiteGroup for my 9mm and 40 S&W plated bullet loads with great success. I also use Bullseye, Red Dot and W231. I don't load even close to max loads, mine are all middle of the road range/plinking loads.

In almost 40 years of reloading, I've never had a double charge or a squib; that's not by accident! You've got to pay attention to what you're doing!! When you pull the trigger-it's too late to find out there was a double charge in that case. I don't think TG would be my first choice in a 500 Mag; but then, I would never own a 500 Mag! LOL

38 Special, 9mm, 40 S&W and 45 acp are all fine for this old dinosaur! The young guys and gals can have those big guns!

 

[venomballistics]

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/178521-why-i-dont-use-titegroup-500-a.html

I'll just leave this right here.

then Ill add this one over here
The Gun Zone -- Anaconda kB!

 

[alwslate]

And always results in the writings of the Reloading God Brian Pierce in some magazine.

But then on the other hand someone will mention near max fill of the case capacity.

Use Titegroup it really doesn't matter to me, if there is data for it, then it must be good, right?

If or when a double charge happens I hope everyone is OK and even the big SW 500 may survive.

And aways followed by the postings that assume
incompetence on the part of the handloader posing the
question. Double charges are human error period and could
happen with any powder. Trail Boss is not the answer to
carelessness. Brian Pearce is without any doubt one of the
very best gunwriters of all time, we are lucky to have him.
And yes if there is viable pressure tested data available it
is ok even if it contradicts the "logical" opinions of others.

 

[cloudswimmer]

Also a plated bullet is a poor choice for any magnum, Ya sure rely on neck tension alone as you can not put much of a crimp if any.

I heard the Berry's 350gr is a pretty thick plating, so how much difference when it comes to the crimp would there be with say a Barnes XPB or FMJ? I've been shooting jacketed .500 Magnum rounds for 10 years off and on with my 10" BFR, however I have only ever loaded hard cast myself, and that mostly .44 Mag and .45LC, so I'm a noob with loading either plated or jacketed slugs in .500.

 

[cloudswimmer]

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/178521-why-i-dont-use-titegroup-500-a.html

I'll just leave this right here.

then Ill add this one over here
The Gun Zone -- Anaconda kB!

Dang! Thanks for that John Ross link there! Very interesting reading. I literally just got that same gun that blew up, and certainly want to use it for a while, so maybe I'll just test my new loads with my BFR 500, on a Ransom Rest, with a string on the trigger and me standing 20 feet behind it Double charges have never been a problem for me as I use a single stage setup and am certifiable OCD......I check my charges 3 times, then flick the light switch 3 times, and make sure the oven is off and doors locked 3 times

 

[venomballistics]

Thing is ... I don't know exactly what is going on with TG. It's been involved with the majority of blown guns and fragments. So much so, it shouldn't be ignored.
You'll never see me recommend the stuff.
The way I see it, if your compelled to ask about it, you probably shouldn't be using it.