TJ's Registered Magnum - What Should He Do? (NEW PHOTOS ADDED 11/29/2007)

[bettis1]

I think that Lee may have a good thought that the gun was either a suicide gun or a contact shooting gun that was discarded. If either of those were the case, it was apparently left untouched and exposed to the elements for a long time.

The only way that I could leave it in the present condition (after arresting the rust) would be if the traumatic history could be documented and then I would seal it up in a shadow box with the supporting information.

As it stands now, it MAKES MY TEETH ITCH!!

Of course, there is an old saying that "all cats look alike in the dark"...so perhaps if the electricity went off...

Bob

 

[handejector]

"all cats look alike in the dark"...

Bob,
Never heard that one.
I have heard "they all get prettier at closing time"...

 

[n4zov]

I wonder about the mechanical condition of the gun, especially the bore?

My first preference would be to have the gun restored - as opposed to just reblued - by somebody who really knew what they were doing. That is assuming that the pitting isn't so deep that restoration is impossible.

 

[bettis1]

The only way that I could leave it in the present condition (after arresting the rust) would be if the traumatic history could be documented and then I would seal it up in a shadow box with the supporting information.

Perhaps I should add a little to my comment here. What I meant to imply was that if the gun could be tied to a significant event (and certainly a suicide or murder would be significant, at least to the victim), I would leave the gun as is. At that point, the event would become the center of focus amd the gun would become a piece of supportive documentation.

Bob

 

[JimSupica]

I do not like refinished guns.
I do not like them, every one.

I do not like them in a box.
(No more than I like internal locks).
I do not like them fixed & cured
With history on them quite obscured.

I do not like them brightly renickeled
Even if the finish looked quite pickeled.
I do not like the nice reblues.
I do not mind those buggered screws.

I do not like them all restored
The history's gone & I get bored.
I do not like them polished and buffed
Of "restoration" I've had enuff!

Dr. Soups.

 

[digi-shots]

Jim, that was a great one!

Do you have that little diddy copyrighted??

Hope you don't mind if I use it some time.

 

[pbslinger]

Good one! Jim Seusspica

 

[cflier]

Wow Dr. Soups, that is a reply with style. Jim did you ever consider that you might make some "REAL" money writing kids books instead scholarly tombs about guns? Your style might really catch on.
Mark

 

[The Virginian]

I would send it in to be restored to someone like RGS Restorations that can not only polish it properly, but keep the roll marks sharp, the edges and rounds without sacrificing the original dimensions, plus they can do the proper "carbonia blue" and re-case color the hammer and trigger. It will cost more than a repolish and rebluing, but the result is far more credible.

 

[mpmillen]

Not to stir the hornet's nest, but how about restoring the gun to proper mechanical condition and leaving the finish as is?

Where is the line drawn? For those that say do not refinish, are new springs, a replacement hand, and a replacement, but vintage, sideplate screw combined with some gunsmithing a "refinish?"

I would make it mechanically safe to shoot, if possible and use a good preservative grease on the inside and outside.

Mark

 

[The Virginian]

Here is the problem with gun collecting, it lies somewhere between coin collecting and car collecting, where one is leave as is at all costs and the other is restore to make like new in most cases. Guns that look like a train wreck need some level of restoration, I guess it depends on who you ask and to what degree.

 

[Dan M]

Hmmmmmmmm,

I guess I need to look at this from my Antique Gun collecting experience. I know in the antique arena Refinished Guns are looked down upon, Go to any of the auction site and just the mention of refinish devalues the Gun Considerably.

After Dr Soups little diddy, I had to think about this.

We are todays keepers of yesterdays History and what we do today could actully Harm the value for tomorrows keepers.

Kind of like Global Warming????? What we do today could vastly affect the outcome of tomorrow..... Ok a little melodramatic but it got me thinking anyways

Dan M

 

[bettis1]

This discussion, and the similar one on the SWCA Forum, has been most interesting. It's pretty evident that our opinions exist on a continuum ranging from "not just NO, but HELL NO" all the way to "Oh, its got a scratch. I've got to get that fixed". Like most things obsessive compulsive, the majority of us probably fit somewhere in the middle of the bell curve and would make our decision based on the specific conditions at hand.

I'm not at all surprised, in fact, I'm pleased to see Jim and Lee express themselves as being firmly in the NO! category. Both of those gentlemen enjoy sterling reputations with their clients; such that when they describe something, you can take it to the bank that it is as they say. Where most of us who only collect these guns might lose some money and take a blow to our ego if we misidentify something, those guys stand to lose something much more valuable, their reputation. Their firmness in this point is perhaps the best protection that we, as collectors, have that a restoration won't some day show up as an original.

As wide ranging as this discussion on restoration has been, there is another aspect that I don't think has been touched upon. I don't mean to imply that the point that I am going to raise is applicable in the case of this specific Registered Magnum, but rather, I am speaking in generalities.

Roy Jinks has said that, during the golden age of gunmaking (for the sake of argument, let's call that the time between the two World Wars) the factory could restore a gun so that it was impossible to distinguish it from the original finish. I don't doubt that at all , but it is an unfortunate fact of modern life that the Factory artisans who could do that have long since passed away. Today, there are probably no more than a handful of men/women who possess the skills to work metal and wood such that it is the equal or perhaps even exceeds the quality of the golden era. Today, the products of these few people are becoming collectable in their own right. As these folks age, and inevitably reduce or cease their output, the collectability of their work will increase dramatically. That should not be the deciding factor in any contemplated restoration, but realistically, it probably should be included in the equation.

Bob

 

[tiapat]

Unless it's got provenance, restore the damned thing and be done with it. You will sleep better. First, the problem is solved. Second, you have a nice gun that is better on the eyes! Just remember to take before and after photos and explain to the prospective buyer that you did it to enhance it.
Cheers

 

[gtivan]

it is what it is. leave it alone, take care of it, and shoot it often.

i would love to have a rm in that condition and the thought of refinishing it would never occur to me.

if your wife had a 6 kids and went through 30 years of marriage with you, would you have her go for cosmetic surgery? does it really matter? you love them for who and what they are, not what they look like.

 

[moosedog]

I always said that a gun can only be original once.
To me a gun that has wear on it from use tells a story about the gun. An LE gun can get alot of wear in 25 years or more. However, this is not from wear. This is damage to the gun from improper storage and care and it looks bad. The story it tells is that some previous owner neglected it badly or lost it. I'd bet my left nut (it's ok, they don't work that good any more) that it spent some time out in the elements.
I'd only consider an expert refinish it. refinish by an expert.

 

[PZ93C]

Assuming it letters as a 4" RM and the stocks match, I'd leave it alone. Just shoot the snot out of an original RM.

If it doesn't, I'd think about an expert refinish. Assuming an expert could do anything with it.

 

[BUFF]

I'd send it to Ham Bowen and have him make a .45 Colt out of it.

(Snark, snark...)

 

[Onomea]

Bottom line, in my opinion, is that as is butt ugly. No way 'round that.

Fix it.

Dave Chicoine, as suggested earlier, or 45 Colt with Bowen ain't a bad idea neither. Or engrave -- I think that a super idea, you find that right guy. Just don't turn some guy loose on it with an electro device...

(Wives are more complicated than guns, but IF my missus looked like that -- and she don't -- I'd be thinking some on an upgrade fo sho.

)

 

[handejector]

A few more thoughts:
First, thanks to Bob for the compliments. If you've never met Bob, you should try. He, and his lovely wife, define "class".
I agree with Bob-

Roy Jinks has said that, during the golden age of gunmaking (for the sake of argument, let's call that the time between the two World Wars) the factory could restore a gun so that it was impossible to distinguish it from the original finish. I don't doubt that at all , but it is an unfortunate fact of modern life that the Factory artisans who could do that have long since passed away.

Not only are the people gone, but the MULTITUDE of FITTED polishing wheels and belts are gone, along with the carbona OVENS. The article I posted some time back: "Raw Steel to Smith & Wesson", shows that myriad of wheels and belts, and the ovens, if anyone cares to see if it can be pulled up. Of course S&W had to fix a gun now and then before shipping- in the course of producing a million items, one is bound to have a polishing or degreasing error, or simply get dinged or dropped. Doesn't matter- if a gun is polished and blued more than once BEFORE shipping, that is an ORIGINAL gun. If a gun was dinged at the factory, and they fixed it, and NO one can tell it, the point is moot. I have yet to see the "restorstion" that looks like a factory gun to me. IF someone is doing carbona blue, they must have an OVEN, not a tank.

How about this solution- TJ wants to keep the gun because it shipped to a sheriff near him. As I said earlier, I try to love them as they are, and move them along if I can't quite accept the condition. I AGREE- that gun looks like Hell. I would NOT want it to be my only magnum. I don't know if TJ has other mags or not, but, if not, I would suggest acquiring a better one BEFORE doing anything to that one. All too often, I have seen a collector put time, money, and effort into a "restoration", only to have the thrill become very faded a year down the road when he acquires nicer, original guns. He is then upside-down in a gun with a limited market, and takes a hit. TJ's membership number suggests he might have some evolutionary steps to go through. The next guy might have preferred the gun had been left alone.
We still don't know the full story of this gun, and might not for some years, or never. What if the good sheriff put his, or someone else's brains all over that gun? Is that not part of the story that should be left on it?
I grow weary of this school of thought that says "I MUST own every model and variation in PRISTINE condition". I would suggest those people might be happier collecting the wonderful commemoratives put out by S&W, Colt, and Winchester. The lovely S&W's and Colts usually come in pretty wooden cases made for display, and the Winchester Commem sleeves are pure ART. (I know- INCOMING!!!)

To qualify this last paragraph, there is nothing WRONG in COLLECTING nice guns if one can find them and afford them. I just don't think we, as collectors, should PRODUCE them. Most of us will have to live with less-than-new-in-the-box guns for pure economic reasons. Even common guns can be rare-to-FIND in NIB condition. THAT is the thrill of the chase. Perhaps we should just clean out all the pawnshops, and seek a quantity or "batch" discount at Ford's, and build a complete collection in record time! (I FEEL my popularity growing

) Take it all the way, and cut a doggy 6-1/2 Reg Mag to the rarer, shorter lengths, and acquire them ALL.(I bet the crosshairs are on me

) While you are waiting on the next batch to come back from the restorer, I'll be quietly plodding along, trying to offer those 80-97% guns some sanctuary.
If anyone is still UNoffended, please post, and be SPECIFIC on how I might offend you also.

Not to stir the hornet's nest, but how about restoring the gun to proper mechanical condition and leaving the finish as is?

Where is the line drawn? For those that say do not refinish, are new springs, a replacement hand, and a replacement, but vintage, sideplate screw combined with some gunsmithing a "refinish?"

Replacing a defective internal part is only logical. If I had a barrel bulged at the end, I would cut it. TJ says his gun is mechanically sound. The sideplate screw- on this gun, I wouldn't bother.

Jim-
I LOVE the rhyme, and will print it out. Maybe you should put it in the FAQ's to preserve it for posterity- it might be the only original thing to be seen here in 10 years.

One last thought(I hear the cheering)- the restorers are MORALLY obligated to mark their work under the grips. I get tired of breaking the bad news to the new guys at shows when they ask me about their guns.

 

[G-Mac]

OK, I have a question...

Assuming that a gun in this condition had no significant historical value, how much would you give for it...AS IS?

Personally, I couldn't stand to look at it for very long, AS IS, and would probably give a few hundred bucks just because it was an RM.

Some more experienced (than mine) opinions please (my oldest Smith is a late-40's K-22)...

TIA.

Gordy

 

[The Virginian]

Handejector:

There are infact a few true restorers that still do oven bluing like the S&W carbonia process and Colt heat blue. They also know how to properly polish a gun and even have the correct roll marks for the addresses etc. They can restore a gun to factory perfection, HOWEVER, like all bluing they can not duplicate the aged finish. I disagree with you on your original point, but have to contend that it is impossible to duplicate the aging that bluing takes on after 130, 100, 75, 50 or even 25 years of proper storage. Most collectors will see the slight variance in color tone when looking at a NIB original vs. a 100% correct restoration. The same goes for case colors, they loose their vibrance over the decades and take on a smokey haze that I have yet to see duplicated. The best that can be hoped for is a restored gun to age in the up coming decades to look more original. With regard to the RM at hand, it is abused and would benefit from a restoration and BTW, there are some restorers that do not mark their work. Parts replacement, while logical, still makes the piece not 100% original and thus collectors will value it less. Just my 2 cents.

 

[handejector]

There are infact a few true restorers that still do oven bluing like the S&W carbonia process and Colt heat blue. They also know how to properly polish a gun and even have the correct roll marks for the addresses etc

Why don't they just start making guns, and quit refinishing the old ones? Seriously- put some Reg Mags back on the market, with their own logo, of course. It might make sense for people that have to have a "pretty as new" gun.

I disagree with you on your original point

Which point? Not sure I remember the "original" one after so many "restorations".

BTW, there are some restorers that do not mark their work.

I understand that. I mean they ALL SHOULD mark their work. I know people that spot Tommy Haas Single Actions, but many collectors can't. Virtually none of the younger guys coming along will be able to, and that is WRONG. Eventually, down through time, SA collectors will probably just come to believe the guns varied that much in the dimensions of the finished parts, or, more likely, a collector of high-dollar high-condition SA's will have to carry a BAG FULL of gauges to check a gun out.

Parts replacement, while logical, still makes the piece not 100% original and thus collectors will value it less.

I think not, at least on small internal parts. I think a collector had rather have a gun that worked, rather than one with a broken mainspring or a busted hammer that won't cock. Chances are, we won't know if a spring or hammer has been replaced with the proper vintage part, and who cares anyway? Of course, a barrel or cyl, or even grips HURTS.

To sum up, ALL refinished guns are not "Restored", but ALL "Restored" guns are still REFINISHED. It AIN'T what S&W shipped, and that is ALL that interests me- what S&W shipped. Collect guns in varied colors of teflon if you so desire- it's a free country.

Assuming that a gun in this condition had no significant historical value, how much would you give for it...AS IS?

Gordy,
I would probably just pass, and not make an offer. There are many better guns out there to chase........

 

[JimSupica]

Originally posted by cflier:
did you ever consider that you might make some "REAL" money writing kids books? Mark

Heck, Mark, that's what I thought SCSW was. Where is this "real money" of which you speak?

Thanks to Bob for his kind words - I'm certainly honored to be grouped with Lee any day.

This has been a very interesting thread to me, and I really appreciate the insightful postings of Mike and all the others who have contributed.

And, despite my little ditty, and never one to recognize that the horse is actually deceased before wielding the crop, I would like to clarify that my personal preference against restoration does not mean that I necessarily mind older refinishes. My main dislike is for modern rework of older guns.

With apologies to those who have already seen the following in the SWCA forum, I'm going to post below a list of ...

"WHAT I LIKE & DISLIKE IN A GUN".

Please realize that this is offered only as my own personal preferences, and with no intention that others "should" share it. Some of my dislikes may be your likes, and vice versa, and more power to you.

It may be interesting as one guy's take on some of the factors that different collectors take into consideration:
**************************************

DESIRABLE FACTORS (in order from most desirable to less-so)

* Documented attribution to a specific individual and usage.
- More famous individual = more desirable.
- More famous usage = more desirable.
- Quality of documentation is extremely important.

* Prototype, "first of", "last of", etc.
- The first or last gun of a model; a factory prototype, etc.

* Documented ownership by a specific individual.
- Same sub-qualifiers apply as to fame of owner & quality of documentation. This would be a gun that was known to have been owned by a specific individual, but his exact usage of the gun, if any, is unknown.

* Rarity of model.

* Quality period of use engraving.
- I do appreciate factory engraving, but wonderful full coverage by a good non-factory engraver is more appealing to me than lesser coverage or quality from the factory. Best is great coverage & artistry from the factory.

* Rarity of variation. (unusual original combinations of barrel length, caliber, finish, markings, etc.)

* General historical attribution.
- Usually this will be specific known military or police usage.

* Highly expert specialized period of use modifications.
- Roper grips. Pope barrels. K-chuks. Etc.

* Colorful or less expert or "folk art" period of use engraving or other decoration.
- I like odd personal decoration that a long ago owner has applied, even if the artistic quality may not be high.

* Oddball period of use modifications.
- Someone went to the trouble to mount a single shot .22 barrel on top of the .44 barrel on a Model 3? Kewl!

* Original unaltered condition.
- While I like this, it is the least important of the "desirable" factors to my taste.


NEUTRAL FACTORS – The following don't really matter much to me. Listed in order from "kind cool" to "kinda uncool":

* Mechanical repair to make a gun functional without replacing major components.

* Period of use factory refinish or rework.

* Period-of-use non-factory refinish or modification (cut barrel, changed sights or grips, etc.)

* Mixed numbers


NEGATIVE FACTORS - Listed in order from "ick" to "abomination".

* Mechanical repair which disposes of or substantially visibly alters a major component.

* Recent factory refinish on older gun.

* Recent professional refinish or alteration on older gun.
- i.e., modification or refinish not intended to appear as original factory.

* Professional restoration on older gun.
- An attempt to make the gun look as it originally came from the factory.

* Buff & bumper-shop refinish.

* Alterations intended to deceive the observer as to the history or original configuration of the gun (i.e. fraud).

Thats my list. YMMV. - Jim

 

[RKmesa]

All:

I have very much enjoyed the discussion that TJ's RM has elicited. It has made me evaluate my own likes, dislikes, inclinations, and natural tendencies. I have decided that like all aspects of my life, my thoughts on this topic have evolved, and will continue to evolve with the acquisition of more wisdom, more age, more (or less) wealth, or if find something that I "want" or "like" and I need to adjust my thoughts to justify the acquisition.

As I have read the posts here and on the SWCA Forum, it seems to me that there are three groups of collectors/accumulators/shooters/firearm enthusiasts when it comes to this issue: Group 1) those who would restore, Group 2) those who are opposed to any restoration and Group 3) those who are somewhere in between.

I would classify those in Group 1 (where I currently reside on this issue) as "fixers." They are naturally drawn to broken things, and people and want to make them better, cleaner, nicer, smarter, etc. than they were when they acquired or came into contact with them. They look at the TJ RM and think "I would love to own that neglected piece of history and turn it into the showpiece of my collection". They have these thoughts, even though they know that such a restoration will most likely not increase the collectibility of the item. These are the same people that purchase neglected grips/stocks and re-checker and refinish them. They find joy and satisfaction in mowing their own lawn, fixing their own cars, volunteering at homeless shelters, counseling the mentally ill, and doing things with their hands.

Group 2 (which I find myself drawn to, but I can't seem to break free of the "fixer" core of my nature), is comprised of individuals that have at their core the noble objective of safeguarding the purity of our collecting/accumulating/shooting hobby. I liken them to the environmentally conscious individuals who dedicate their life to preserving the wilderness nature our National Forests - fighting for legislation to keep the motorized vehicles, ski lifts and masses of humanity out of the pure and untouched wilderness so that it can be preserved for future generations just the way that God intended it to be.

Group 3 is everyone else, and I would imagine that members of both Group 1 and Group 2 occasionally jump in and out of Group 3 to suit their needs, wants and desires at any given stage in life.

What I wholeheartedly agree with is that if a gun is restored, the artist should take credit for, and mark his work. I observe the restoration skills of Doug Turnbull and would be proud to present any firearm that he restored as a "Doug Turnbull Restoration." The same could be said for several other restorers that have been mentioned. This may impact the value, but I think in time the work of such restoration artists will be seen for what it is - beauty in function and the artisans themselves will be honored creators of one-of-a-kind firearms that were custom "re-created", "refreshed" or "restored" for the current owner. This strikes me in the same vane as having Wayne D'Angelo master engrave a signature piece for your collection.

With that said, I am grateful for the revolvers that bring us together on this forum. Thanks for putting up with my rambling thoughts and observations, and may you find joy and happiness in whatever "Group" you find yourself in

 

[mikepriwer]

RK, Jim, and others

The answer to any question is always " Yes, No, and Maybe ". In a somewhat meaningless
way, that sums up this thread.

The reality of any gun is who owns it, and what they want out of it. After all is
said and done, either the gun will be refinished/restored, or it will not. If we
accept that this RM has a lot of abuse and neglect , not related to its LE duty,
then sooner or later, it will be refinished/restored, if not by the present owner,
then by a future owner. I think it is inevitable.

One of the more enjoyable commets, on this thread, was a question about having
cosmetic sugery for a wife of 20 or more years, or somthing like that. I laughed
to myself - I'm sure that marriages have broken up for related reasons !

Later, Mike Priwer

 

[The Virginian]

Mike: My Mom who is 67 had some facial cosmetic surgery done and my Dad (71) seems to be smiling a little more these days. She was not refinished, merely restored!

Seriously, I think it made her happier too and that is what is important. Likewise if the gun looks like a dog with no historical pedigree, if it is restored properly, and I too agree someday it will, then it will be more desireable to the right person.

 

[Farmer17]

It all boils down to money. That gun is a rusty old piece of crap to me... but it's still worth something because its an RM. If some guy thinks it's cool that it has suicide/homicide blood stains all over it, fine...let him shell out the money and take it. Me personally, I like things that are beautiful and functional. Whether its an old RM, pre-series, or a newer Colt Python, I want a gun that looks and functions good. If I had that gun I would sell it to someone who truly appreciates old worn out rusty things, and I wouldn't care what they did with it. I'm glad there are people who like guns like that, but I'm not one of them.

 

[JohnHenryD]

I'm not sure if gun collectors and/or dealers are like furniture dealers but as an antique dealer who occasionally sells furniture to other dealers the first thing I hear is {Don't clean it, don't refinish it. etc." Then they attempt to buy it at a very reduced price because of the "issues" Nine times out of ten the next time I see it, it's setting on the showroom floor refinished and/or worked on. As Shakespeare said, "They doth protest too much." All that being said, If it was mine in that condition and I wanted to keep it forever, I would have it redone by someone who knew his business. Otherwise, let the next guy mess with it.

 

[Jim Kuykendall]

Has it been lettered? Give the full accounting. To much speculation as to it's history and condition unless we get some better pictures and history as promised.