TL Target recently sold: interesting...

[Hondo44]

Some of you may have witnessed this very recent Gunbroker sale which I was asked by a sharp eyed friend to comment on some days before it closed last night. It's beautiful and a low #492 that would only make a nice shooter. Because however, it does have "history", some factory work but also a few 'anomalies' worth discussing now that it's over, which some may find interesting.

You can find it with many photos here: S&W 6.5" BLUE .44 HE 1st MODEL TRIPLE LOCK TARGET SERIAL #492 W/ PAPERWORK - Revolvers at GunBroker.com : 893710226


The two screw pre war rear sights did not begin until ~1935. And the rear sight blade notch is way too wide for a TL era front sight. Hence the addition of the contemporary front Patridge sight, with the non-factory milled installation.

Also look at the rear sight front end tang fit. A factory installation, original or added, would be a perfect flush fit and almost invisible. Nor is the milled slot neat, flush and tight like factory work. Plus notice the pitting (possibly from welding?) between the front screw and the front end: I believe that is a late 1930s K frame sight with a piece welded on at the front to extend it for the N frame length! Sights probably added and not by the factory.


The S <> in the extractor shroud and on cyl rear face means replacements in the factory service dept. And the original serial # would have been stamped on the new barrel as it is shown. Some time subsequent it was sent for a very nice factory refinish in 1974, as dated on the invoice and still in the factory Carbonia bluing period and with a corresponding rework date and 'Refinish Standard' code on the grip frame as shown.


The letter shown is not the official Authenticity Letter; it gives no serial # nor date of shipping, nor mention of being a target model. It appears to be only general correspondence in response to a general inquiry about TLs. If a true Authenticity Letter exists that confirms if it shipped as a target model or not, it was not shared.


Of course the stocks with medallions are not contemporary to the serial # and the 'fair' fit shows it.

 

[delcrossv]

Man, that one had more diamonds on it than an engagement ring.

I was kinda surprised that it was marketed as a TL target rather than a conversion, but it may have lettered as a target and been "upgraded" in the past 100 years. As a shooter, the Patridge would be easier to see than the stock Paine or blade, but at that price I doubt most buyers would make it a range gun.

 

[Ruger 13]

How much did it sell for?

 

[daddio202]

How much did it sell for?

It sold for $4275.00. Every time I see them at auction even in not so perfect condition the price is higher and higher. I have seen crusty, barely functional non-target versions sell for over a grand. My chances seem to be fading away

 

[Old_Cop]

Add a TL to the RM that I will never own.

 

[bdGreen]

.44 H. E. First Model serial 492 was shipped in February 1908


As you can see the 'work sheet' does call out the condition prior to refinishing.

"GUN IS PITTED MAY NOT BE PERFECT"

The lock insert in the frame is also blued and wasn't left 'white'.

Smith and Wesson's invoice sheet for the work done does call it out as a "Blue 6 1/2" .44 Target Triple Lock"

The rear sight assembly is definitely suspect.
What happened to the original sight assembly and when?

And, the rear sight assembly screw is protruding through the top strap.

Yes, it is an anomaly.

bdGreen

 

[mrcvs]

Shouldn't the seller have done a better job of disclosing this information?

 

[bdGreen]

Shouldn't the seller have done a better job of disclosing this information?

A number of the issues were published on the work sheet. This should lead those with interest to investigate any other points that may seem a bit in question.

What particulars should the seller have called our attention to?

The images of the gun were plenty and quite well represented all areas of interest.

"Buyer Beware" also means "buyer be aware".

Food for thought.

bdGreen

 

[mrcvs]

I suppose being that it was refinished by the factory and pitting was described, etc, that defects were described. I wouldn't call this one an original Target Model, however.

 

[Chukar60]

This is why it is not advisable for us guppie class fans to wade into the shark pool.
With those kind of dollars trading hands, you better know exactly what you are doing or know someone who does.

 

[Mike1647]

Thanks

I learn so much from this forum. I appreciate the education.

 

[delcrossv]

Shouldn't the seller have done a better job of disclosing this information?

Dunno. . Dave is a righteous guy and someone buying one of those should know what he's getting into. It pays to look at the pictures and if unsure, ask questions. He's good about answering.

I suppose being that it was refinished by the factory and pitting was described, etc, that defects were described. I wouldn't call this one an original Target Model, however.

That's the $4700 question, isn't it. Will it letter as a Target or not. Even though it's not OEM, if it's not a converted fixed sight, it still would be a TTL.

I got one from him- before prices went stratospheric.

 

[bdGreen]

Ok, here is another anomaly.

Explain this image of the grip strap on the Triple Lock.

I know my Triple Lock that shipped 9 years after this one was shipped doesn't have any grooves on the grip strap.

What say you?

I mean, I know what it looks like.

bdGreen

 

[delcrossv]

Looks like "dings" under the refinish. You're right. Odd.

 

[bdGreen]

Looks like "dings" under the refinish. You're right. Odd.

Those faded grooves appear to be a machined pattern. Looks like the majority of the grip strap was heavily polished leaving remnants behind on each end.

bdGreen

 

[Flygas]

Dunno. . Dave is a righteous guy and someone buying one of those should know what he's getting into. It pays to look at the pictures and if unsure, ask questions. He's good about answering.

That's the $4700 question, isn't it. Will it letter as a Target or not. Even though it's not OEM, if it's not a converted fixed sight, it still would be a TTL.

Davis is indeed a First Class seller. I am a little confused by these anomalies and I can't imagine there was any bad intent on David's part. I do know he sometimes (maybe always?) has someone else do the photos and listings so possibly there was some confusion on the specifics, maybe some miscommunication.

 

[mrcvs]

At the very least, a factory letter should have been presented with this revolver. If it shipped originally as a Target Model, then one can use an educated guess to explain anomalies, and one can always claim this is an original Target Model revolver that does require a few "excuses", if you will.

But if it does not letter as a Target Model, then this revolver falls clearly within the realm of one subjected to aftermarket modifications.

Of course, a letter is not required when selling a revolver. But, when you get into the realm of the extraordinary, for better or worse, I would demand it.

I also collect Colt Cavalry & Artillery Model revolvers. They are authenticated by John Kopec. John A. Kopec

On more occasions than I can recall, a revolver is authenticated, the seller of the revolver does not like the letter, and the letter is destroyed, and the revolver is offered for sale without the letter, perhaps with further enhancements. Resubmission of the revolver to Mr Kopec by the new owner reveals it was previously submitted, problems were identified, and the new letter is generated.

Obtaining data about a firearm, or any other object, for that matter, and using it to one's advantage, for better or worse, has been going on since items were manufactured, and this will always be the case. The seller has no obligation to letter this revolver and present the letter as part of the sake package. On the other hand, the seller is not exactly the new kid on the block, and should be aware that this Target Model revolver differs from others he has handled over the years.

Do your research, and caveat emptor! It can also work the other way. I purchased at auction not too long ago a Target Model Triple Lock revolver with condition. It had no letter on it, had clearly original Target Model sights, and was identified as a Smith & Wesson Model of 1908, which it is, but was not identified as a Triple Lock revolver. In this case, I was able to snag a Target Model Triple Lock revolver for far less than actual value.

 

[delcrossv]

Those faded grooves appear to be a machined pattern. Looks like the majority of the grip strap was heavily polished leaving remnants behind on each end.

bdGreen

I wonder if it started life like this: ( Also a TL)

It "kinda" letters

 

[handejector]

And, the rear sight assembly screw is protruding through the top strap.

That forward attachment screw always protrudes through the topstrap.

Ok, here is another anomaly.

Explain this image of the grip strap on the Triple Lock.

I know my Triple Lock that shipped 9 years after this one was shipped doesn't have any grooves on the grip strap.

What say you?

I mean, I know what it looks like.

bdGreen

The tangs were not originally grooved. Even if they had been, they did not extend up onto the knuckle. We can only speculate what those marks are-
Something to do with a shoulder stock?
Some kind of after-market grooving?


Also note that the four line address was added in the 74 refinish.

 

[bdGreen]

That forward attachment screw always protrudes through the topstrap.





The tangs were not originally grooved. Even if they had been, they did not extend up onto the knuckle. We can only speculate what those marks are-
Something to do with a shoulder stock?
Some kind of after-market grooving?


Also note that the four line address was added in the 74 refinish.

Ha. I was wondering when someone would bring up the 4 line address.
This very gun was at auction a short while in the past and was also talked about here on the forum. At that time it was never mentioned about the 4-line address either.

bdGreen