Traffic Ticket Advice

[MaximumLawman]

No disrespect Lawman, but the LEO's around here are under extreme pressure to multiply their proceeds without regard to method or credibility. The book went out the window. The school zone signs are back in the "safety" patrol car trunks in the summer, 25-30 people are getting stoppped en masse and cited for driving through the same red light when the majority clearly did not and the last ones barely clear the intersection with the light still green. Many will choose to pay.

There's no doubt that some cities use traffic enforcement to generate revenue. Equally dubious is when they cave in to citizen demands that the police "do something" about the terrible (in their eyes) traffic problems when there's not a problem in the first place.

 

[kennyb]

Here are four alternatives:
1. Hire a lawyer. You are right-this needs to be fought. Get experts to measure the timing of the light. Get engineers to gauge the cooefficent of friction on the roat to prove you operated safely, that you could not have made a safe stop which is why you ran the yellow light. Total cost-probably around 7-8k after paying expert fees and lawyer fees, not to mention your time and you still might loose in court.
2. Hire a lawyer. Pay him $300 for his time. He will talk to the DA and get him to amend to a non moving violation-pay a fine and move on. It's off your record and just be more careful.
3. Talk to the DA yourself; chances are he will reduce to a non moving violation, let you pay a fine and move on.
4. Go to court yourself and fight it. If you are lucky it will only be twice, once for arraignment (which will take tou all day cause they ALWAYS take the traffic tickets last) and the next time for trial-which will also take all day cause they will do pleas first, then take the defendants with lawyers and then last take those who are "protecting their rights" themselves. You will probably have to come back a third day cause either, a) they run out of time or b) the cop doesn't show (the judge ALWAYS gives the state anothe bite at the apple-they won't dismiss until the cop doesn't show the second time).

If you're a local, I reccomend step # 3. If you're an out of towner, I suggest step # 2 (Judges & DA's DO take into account the fact that you are leaving a little bit of money in the local economy ) I DO NOT reccomend step #4 if you are an out of towner-Bad enough playing without homefield advantage and on your own is asking for it!!!!!

Back when I was young and idealistic and has time to burn I would right these wrongs, but after 27 years of practicing law, the idealism has pretty much been beat out of me and I'm pretty much just in it for the money.


And after it's all said and done.....FIDO - life is too short.

and under #4 you forgot to add...the attorney isn't in court...you know,he forgot he had court in another jurisdiction and leaves his client sitting all day..or he is in circuit court etc.

 

[kennyb]

I don't know how things work in VA, since I haven't gotten a ticket here. Back in MI, when I had to go to court over one, there was no arraignment or anything so convoluted. I just talked to the magistrate and told him what happened. The officer that wrote my ticket actually told me to go to court over it, that he had to write up "X", but he'd get it knocked down to "Y" in court. He was true to his word. I was the only one well dressed and not yelling, so the magistrate was also happy with me.

But I digress...

(This is one of those situations where Prepaid Legal is nice to have. You pay your monthly fee and not only do they write your threatening letters for you (you get X number a year, which pays for the cost of the membership), but they provide an attorney to go to court for you on any traffic matters as part of the plan. There I go digressing again...)

What I'd do, if you can spare the time, is go to court and talk to the magistrate/judge/whoever politely if you think that you're in the right. You certainly have the right to due process and availing yourself of a hearing and being heard. It could be that the presiding official will throw the ticket out or reduce the fine. Who knows. Doesn't hurt to try.

there is no arraignment in va.on a traffic charge...simply go to court on the date on the summons..barring something unusual,it will be head then unless you want to continue it for an attorney...my jurisdiction in less then 90 minutes south of fredricksburg and i have not heard of "inattentive driving"...its either something new since i retired or a city law there

 

[41]

Three second yellow

If you look at the timing of the yellow duration, it is usually three seconds. Depending on the width of the intersection that has to be crossed and the speed, there are a lot of cases where you can not cross the intersection without it changing to red.

I have read that some states/cities have realized the problem and have now increased the yellow to five seconds or longer. This has prevented rear end collisions and reduced red light running.

Still there will be some that will still try to run the yellow. And then there are those cities that only want the revenue.

I would check the intersection width and light timing and do some calculations to see if the yellow light duration is long enough to give warning to stop for the speed and stopping distance for the vehicle. If you were driving a tractor trailer, the probability is you can not stop in time without being in the intersection and smoking the tires.

 

[Hermann]

i also believe in admitting to a mistake and paying up. If you're guilty. While i agree most people probably say they "thought" the light was yellow, i don't agree that the officer is always right and the driver is always wrong. Yellow does mean caution, and be prepared to stop. But there's still such a thing as an unsafe stop, and unless you're in danger of hitting another vehicle in the intersection, sometimes it's safer to go through the light than it is to slam on your brakes and end up stopped in the middle of an intersection. I've received tickets in the past, and always paid them, because i was guilty. But i refuse to pay if i'm innocent. Leos are human and make mistakes too. Despite what some of them think.

very true !!!

 

[buckeyeshooter1]

ah yes, lovely Alabama! I once was ticketed for doing 32 in a 29 zone at 5am in the morning on the residentail section on University Drive in Auburn. I was probably the only car on the road for miles. I was starting a 742 mile commute 'home' to Columbus, Ohio for the Thanksgiving Holiday. Wonderful memories such as these give me great appreciation for LEO's---- NOT!

 

[MaximumLawman]

Wonderful memories such as these give me great appreciation for LEO's---- NOT!

Good thing most cops are way past expecting appreciation from anyone. When it comes, it's a small bonus. When it doesn't, it just doesn't.

I went into a smoky upper apartment once to get some kittens out while the lower apartment was on fire. I got them out and handed them to the owner and she never bothered to even say thanks. She was probably hoping they were roasting. A year later, we locked up a guy for a spouse abuse warrant and I recognized him as her boyfriend. I told him his girlfriend never said thanks for me saving her kittens. He said "See, I TOLD you she was a bitch!"

 

[safearm]

I've heard "If I ran a red light, he should have written me for the red light" in court so many times that I'm just about at the point where I'm going to start writing people for the exact violation every time. Same goes for "They just want your money so you don't show up in court, that's why they write you for a no points violation. So you just pay it and don't take it to court." Pretty soon, I'm going to start writing for the actual violation to avoid the appearance of impropriety. "Red Light" means a Red Light ticket. No more "Amber Lights", "Fail to Signal", etc.....Same goes for speeding. 85/55 is now 85/55. No more "5 Over". QUOTE]

I learned from an experienced partner in the first department where I was a sworn officer, if I was going to write a citation instead of a written or verbal warning, that the citation is exactly for the offense committed, i.e., 40 in a 25, disobeyed a traffic control device, etc. The first time I gave someone a break by reducing the speed on a citation, it would be used to question my integrity, "So officer, your radar indicated my client was going 40 mph, but you listed the speed as 30 on this affadavit (citation), thereby committing perjury."
If I wanted to give a person a break, based on the circumstances, then they would get a warning. If they decided to act like a jerk, I always had the ability to raise the ante, either with one or more citations.

 

[MaximumLawman]

The first time I gave someone a break by reducing the speed on a citation, it would be used to question my integrity, "So officer, your radar indicated my client was going 40 mph, but you listed the speed as 30 on this affadavit (citation), thereby committing perjury."

Did they accuse the prosecutor of perjury when they charged someone with Manslaughter when the elements of the crime fit a higher charge? That's a pretty weak argument by any lawyer, and I can't see them making it around here. All you have to do is dismiss the lower charge, and recharge with the higher offense. I've done it several times when someone wanted to make an issue out of it. Then the guy's client can charge the idiot with malpractice for talking him into a harsher charge.

If he was doing 40, he had to pass through 30 to get there, didn't he! Seeing your radar indicating 40 goes WAY beyond probable cause to believe he was doing 30, and that's all you need to charge him with 30. In some states you need even LESS than PC to issue a civil infraction. Also, the elements of the crime of perjory don't even come close to charging someone with a lesser traffic offense than what you observed.

I've never seen a reason to charge for the actual observed offense every time. I have no need to make someone's insurance company richer by raising their rates for the next couple years unless they really deserved the ticket. Like I said before, I'm not going to punish the majority for the stupidity of the very few, unlike some folks who don't appreciate any cops at all because one guy gave them a borderline ticket.

 

[2Loud4You]

Maximum Lawman, a lot of officers catch grief for doing their job. Let's face it, no one likes getting a ticket but most of the time the person deserved it. We all know cops are humans too so there are some bad seeds out there which is why I said "most of the time". I've gotten my fair share of tickets because I was speeding. If you drive a car you speed, even if it's an accident, it happens. You probably also break other traffic laws whether knowingly or not. Again, it happens.

I'll be the 1st to admit I get pi$$ed when I get a ticket but it's not at the officer, it's at me. My last ticket cost me $357 for 65 in a 35 because I was impatient due to a driver at a red light in front of me. It had been a long trip and I gunned it. I didn't even realize my car could accelerate that fast from a dead stop. He clocked me going the other way and I knew I screwed up. No one to blame but me. I did catch a break in court. I paid the full fine but the judge dropped the points. I was grateful and said thank you, esp. considering a younger guy (19) lost his license for a year for 20 over.

You guys have a hard, thankless job which the pay does not reflect. I'm a mechanic and my boss knows the Asst. Chief of our county. He's a great guy as well as the other officers he sends to our shop. The problem is we typically encounter officers when it's going to cost us money and people get jaded by that. Like I said, I've gotten my fair share of tickets but I treat all the officers whose cars we repair with complete respect and considering they're usually repeat customers I'll often greet them by name.

 

[kennyb]

Late last spring my wife and I were taking our sick dog to the vet. The appointment was for 18:00 and we were about 10 mins late and 10 mins away. I was on the cell phone with a client and blew through a 35 MPH zone doing 49. A State Trooper was running that section of road and stopped us. He said I was doing 51 in a 35, but I had the Garmin on and the max speed had registered as 49 and I showed him. After about 10 mins he came back with the citation at 49, in the meantime the dog threw up again.

I elected to go to court to fight the points. My trial time was 14:30 and the trooper was eight mins late. The magistrate was on the phone until 14:56. Just me and the trooper in the courtroom, and we were BS-ing about the State Police phasing out the Jeep Cherokee for the Ford Expedition, and what a great, fast vehicle the Cherokee was as compared to the huge Expedition.

The trooper was in uniform, and I had on a navy blue Brooks Brothers blazer, gray Brooks Brothers trousers and a mint green shirt with a blue and green striped rep tie, and polished black oxfords.

The magistrate entered, we rose, and sat. The magistrate read the case particulars, then explained to me how the hearing was going to proceed with the trooper presenting evidence and then I would have a chance to present my side and any supporting evidence. He asked if I had any questions and I asked if I could make a statement. Granting my request, the magistrate listened as I said I was not present in his court to protest the fine or the charge, I admit to being over the speed limit. I explained that we were late for an appt at the vet for our sick dog, and I was on the cell phone with a customer. I told the judge that my driving record was clear for the first 17 years since I had moved back to PA, and I had two citations in as many years for being over the limit, both times I was on the phone. I told the magistrate that the cell phone was the common denominator, providing a distraction to my attention to driving. I also sincerely told the magistrate that I stopped using the phone while driving, and if I get a call I pull over, or ask the caller if I can call back. I again told the magistrate that I was not contesting the fine, and that I'd plead guilty to a charge that did not carry points, but the important thing I took away from the incident was that I no longer use a cell when I drive (and I don't).

That turned out to be a hot button with the magistrate. He got started on how he hates cell phones, and he was all in favor of me not using one while driving. He asked me if it was OK with me that he reduce the speed to 39 MPH because then there would be no points, and the violation itself would remain the same, which would not cause the trooper any issues during a future review. A "win-win" of sorts. I agreed, and the magistrate asked the trooper if he was OK with it, and he was. The magistrate gaveled the hearing and asked that I wait for the paperwork and a refund check for part of the fine that was based on the speed, the difference betw. 39 and 49 mph. I got a little under $40 back and the papers. The magistrate told me to "call right away" if I got a notice from Harrisburg about points, because I should not; he said he had the clerk enter the reduction in the system just then, and I should not get any points. He again stressed that I "call right away" if I did get a notice and not respond to it, and let him take care of straightening out Harrisburg.

The magistrate then put out his hand and he, the trooper and I all shook. the magistrate went to his chambers, and the trooper and I stood outside the courtroom BS-ing for another 20 mins about what I did for a living, our kids and pets (he asked if the dog was OK), and his retirement that was two years away and he couldn't wait. I apologized for holding him up. "You're not holding me up," he said. "I'm only going to work."

I still don't use a cell phone when I'm driving. And I can tell you the location and speed of any speed limit sign on any of the routes I take in the regular course of my work.

Noah

well stated noah...many cases are conducted in a similar fashion...shame is many do not know this...glad it worked out for you