Training V. Experience

[Smoke]

This article was written by Greg Ellifritz Instructors | Active Response Training

Link to the article: http://www.activeresponsetraining.ne...-vs-experience

This is something I never would have thought of in dealing with a criminal

From the article :

The FBI put out a publication several years ago titled “Violent Encounters: A Study of Felonious Assaults on Our Nation’s Law Enforcement Officers.” In it, the researchers identified 40 cases of serious attacks on police officers and then interviewed both the officers and the attackers involved in each case. They talked to both about the training they received, weapons usage, practice habits, and attitudes towards violence. The results were remarkable.

The first thing that the researchers learned is that our assumptions about criminals not training are wrong. Nearly 40% of the criminal attackers in this study had received FORMAL firearms training (mostly in the military). More than 80% of the criminal attackers regularly practiced with their firearms, with an average number of 23 Practice Sessions Per Year! They conducted these practice sessions in trash dumps, wooded areas, back yards and “street corners in known drug trafficking areas”. What that means is that the practice sessions were taking place in realistic environments, under conditions similar to those the attackers were likely to face in combat.

Does that change your opinion about the abilities of your likely attacker? It should. Let’s compare the criminals’ training program with the programs of the cops they attacked…

It’s always better to overestimate your opponent

 

[wheelyfun66]

Thanks for posting that.
One thing I learned on the streets of Tikrit, Iraq was to never underestimate the enemy.

I train as hard as any civilian here in Vermont, and always remember the lessons I learned in combat, as well as studying the words of those who came before me.

 

[Smoke]

This article changed my mind on a few things. First, I always ***-U-ME-d that the bad guys didn’t have anything to gain by continuing to press their attack once I started to resist with lethal force. Conventional wisdom has always been that they’ll break off and go find an easier target, according to this article that's not necessarily true, I'd much rather assume the bad guy is going to fight and be proved wrong than the opposite.

The second think that I’m rethinking is how willing I’d be to try to warn the bad guy off as in “Stop I have a gun quit whatever you’re doing or I’ll shoot.” The bad guy just might open up while I’m talking

 

[tops]

Surely not. It wouldn't be sporting of him to start shooting while you are still talking. In some circles that would be very rude. Larry

 

[Don 73]

Surely not. It wouldn't be sporting of him to start shooting while you are still talking. In some circles that would be very rude. Larry

LOL,

Seriously though, while I have somewhat of an obligation to "warn" (POLICE! DROP IT!) the bad guy, most likely I will be punctuating my sentences (or drowning them out) with gunfire.

If I am OFF DUTY, I MAY try the "Police! Drop it" thing if the SHTF, but you never know, I may have to let my M&P do the 'talking' for me.

 

[Rastoff]

The link to the article didn't work for me. Even so, I agree with your final sentence Smoke; always assume the bad guy knows what he's doing.

Now, a little counter point:

Just because someone has training, that doesn't mean they know what they're doing. I had training while in the military. The training I sought outside of the military was much better.

I have trained alongside military (from all branches), police and private security. There is one truism, we're all just people outside of our job. The one benefit the military has is real world experience, but only if they have been in combat. Otherwise, they have the same as we do.

I've seen a lot of people shoot at the ranges around here. I can tell you that I wouldn't be worried if most of them pointed a gun at me. Add the stress of a real world attack and any shot that found its intended target would be pure luck.

We all need more practice, but practice is worthless if you don't have the proper training to tell you how to practice properly.

Avoid the fight if possible. The best fight is no fight.
If an altercation is imminent, look for, and take, any escape possible.
If an escape isn't possible, fight like a frightened wolverine. Doing something is better than nothing.

I don't really care what training the bad guy has, it won't change my response. At best, it will help him survive, but...well I'll just leave it there.

 

[red dragon]

I tried the link,didn't work. first off,i agree never to underestimate your attacker. but I'm calling BS based off of this quote. you can't base a whole country's crime percentage off of 40 hand picked cases.not to mention they based numbers off of interviewed Criminals,no chance they'd lie.most of us do our best to make it to the range once or twice a month.these guys averaged twice a month,yea right.they might of popped a few off twice a month but training on targets,highly doubtful. second off,these are police statistics. people who are a hundred times more likely to be involved in a shootout.by all means train for the worst,but to think that you have a 60/40 chance of coming up against Rambo is crazy.yes there a few deranged criminals who train, mass murders come to mind.we all know those odds.but if you practice,always carry and stay aware of your surroundings you'll increase the odds of a favourable outcome tremendously.as for warning a bg,if they pose a immediate threat no warning will be given.if i gain access to the whole article my opinion could change but based on the quote, i doubt it.jm2c

 

[Protected One]

Link does not work, but I say "Ditto" to Red Dragons comments.

Also, there is a new book that I think everyone here should read. It's called "Facing Violence", by Rory Miller. Check it out. Regardless to what training you may have, you'll be glad you did.


"When you can take the pebble from my hand, you will be ready to carry concealed".

 

[Smoke]

Just because someone has training, that doesn't mean they know what they're doing. I had training while in the military. The training I sought outside of the military was much better.

Try this link

Training vs. Experience | Active Response Training

More than 40% of the criminals identified in the study had at least one gunfight experience before attacking the officer. 25% of the attackers had been involved in more than five gunfights! Emphasis added

Take a look at this guy. He was 29 years old when he was killed by a homeowner during a home invasion. He had previously been shot in 10 other incidents and survived! Do you think that he might have picked up a few insights about gunfighting during some of those shootings?

The officers in the Violent Encounters study had far less actual experience. Less than 25% of the officers had been involved in a shooting incident before their attacks. The largest number of shootings in which any of the officers had been involved was three. On average, each officer had been involved in four incidents in which they were legally justified in shooting a criminal, but they chose not to shoot.

You really need to read the article, one of the criminals profiled had been in 10 firefights as a criminal before being killed in the 11th. If that guy were to kick down my door I would be up against someone with vastly more experience than I have as well as far less moral compunction against pulling the trigger.

Now having this information may not change the outcome but it is going to allow me go in to the (potential) fight with a much better idea of what I'm up against and how hard I'm going to have to fight.

You can go to any gun forum and you will hear over and over again that most SD incidents end with no shots fired and even if true IMO that leads people to believe all you have to do is show the badguy your mighty boom stick but that happens when it’s not? That split second of “this is not going they way I thought it would” could be what gets you killed

 

[poordevil]

I wonder how many gunfights the homeowner experienced when he confronted the 10 time gunfight survivor bad guy? If he had none, which is likely, he did well because he did not hesitate. Maybe.

We all remember Bernard Getez? After being mugged in NYC subway before, he armed himself with a M-60 with a 3" BBL. On that day he was confronted by 5 rather large Goblins. He shot all 5. One round each. And saved himself. I do not know how much or what kind of training he had, but living in NYC and having his unregistered gun, I doubt any.

Training is great, if your heart is into it. Some just go though the motions. It would appear that the desire to not be a victim is very high on the list to help you survive.

P

 

[Rastoff]

You really need to read the article, one of the criminals profiled had been in 10 firefights as a criminal before being killed in the 11th. If that guy were to kick down my door I would be up against someone with vastly more experience than I have as well as far less moral compunction against pulling the trigger.

Being shot 10 times doesn't give you experience, it means you're lucky.

You can go to any gun forum and you will hear over and over again that most SD incidents end with no shots fired and even if true IMO that leads people to believe all you have to do is show the badguy your mighty boom stick but that happens when it’s not? That split second of “this is not going they way I thought it would” could be what gets you killed

Your right, but having the knowledge that someone has experience shouldn't change your tactics at all. If you're going to carry a gun, you should be seeking training. It's that training that will save you not knowledge of the bad guy's experience.

I'm going to start another thread about the 4 kinds of shooters.

 

[SgtLumpy]

I always figured most bad guys have been to the most intensive weapons, self defense, offense, how to kill university in the country - the penal system.

For every hour I spent in cop school training in how to shoot, take weapons from others, fight hand to hand etc, the guys in jail have probably spent 20 or 30 times that in THEIR training classes.


Sgt Lumpy

 

[shouldazagged]

I always figured most bad guys have been to the most intensive weapons, self defense, offense, how to kill university in the country - the penal system.

A neighbor of mine (an ex-priest) had worked for many years in one of the toughest Texas penitentiaries. He described it as "graduate school for criminals". If the inmate was in long enough he could get a doctorate, but a shorter sentence was good for a master's degree in crime, including violence.

 

[Smoke]

Being shot 10 times doesn't give you experience, it means you're lucky.

Being shot 10 times means he's very likely to have been in more real world gun fights that you have. It means he's certainly been in more than I have.

Your right, but having the knowledge that someone has experience shouldn't change your tactics at all.

This is very true, having that knowledge does change my mindset however.

If you're going to carry a gun, you should be seeking training.

Again, very true and I do

It's that training that will save you not knowledge of the bad guy's experience.

Experience is always a harsher teacher than training. A well trained amatuer is (IMO) is at a clear disadvantage to an untrained guy with real world experience.

I've plenty of training I wouldn't take on John Wesley Hardin if my life depended on it.

I'm going to start another thread about the 4 kinds of shooters.

I want to read it because I've never heard that term before

 

[Smoke]

I posted this article because it addressed a blind spot in my training. I have always assumed that if a bad guy was kicking down my door and I resisted with lethal force he’d retreat. I mean isn’t that common sense? He has no duty to continue the attack why not go find an easier target?

After reading this article I’m now rethinking that because even if the odds of it ever happening are pretty low if it does happen I’d much rather be prepared for a real firefight and find out I’m wrong than be prepared for the guy to run and be wrong.

There is a large segment even on this forum of gun owners that think the bad guy is going to poop his pants and run at the sound of you chambering a round in your 870 when the truth is you’re very likely not the first person that ever pointed a gun at the guy and (IMO) you need to go into the fight prepared for that

 

[mc5aw]

There's no substitute for real life experience, but quality training can ready a person for that experience should the situation arise.

 

[Rastoff]

Smoke,
I agree with you that too many believe some of the myths like racking the slide of a shotgun will send the bad guy running. It might work, but it's more likely to focus his shots in your direction.

I guess that my training might be different than what others get. I don't think or rely on the bad guy running as soon as the first shot goes off; never have. My goal in defense is always to end the threat as soon as possible. If I'm using a gun, I want to put two shots on the bad guy in the thoracic cavity as soon as I can bring my gun to bear and ensure good hits.

It may seem like I'm arguing that what you posted isn't valuable; I'm not. What I'm getting at is, your training should already be preparing you for a determined opponent. In all the training I've had, we always had the mindset, "You don't stop until the bad guy is on the run or on the ground." So, I guess I didn't have that "gap" in my training because I've never expected the bad guy to run just because I have a gun.

Let me ask you this:
Do you have any empty hand training?
Has your training included failure-to-stop drills?

Also, if anyone here has had a trainer who said, "Once you shoot, the bad guy will run away anyway" or "Don't keep a round in the chamber because it's safer and the sound of racking the weapon will send him running anyway", find a new instructor.

 

[Rastoff]

Oh yeah, I almost forgot. Real life experience is OK, but it doesn't teach with a purpose. Getting punched only tells you what it feels like, it doesn't train you how to punch. So, being in a fire fight will help you keep your cool, but it doesn't teach you how to shoot.

 

[Cruise]

Thanks for posting that.
One thing I learned on the streets of Tikrit, Iraq was to never underestimate the enemy.

I train as hard as any civilian here in Vermont, and always remember the lessons I learned in combat, as well as studying the words of those who came before me.

Thanks for serving in Iraq.

It is funny how we have to learn the same thing over and over. We learned that in RVN as well and I am sure they needed refresher courses in prior wars as well.

 

[walkin' trails]

I saw this one going around 3-4 years ago. I would have almost discounted it but for the stories I've heard of gang bangers sneaking out into the country to shoot, or the ones I've seen at a local indoor range. I would not necessarily consider all of it to be "training" from a LE or miltary point of view, but it is trigger time nonetheless. The thing to remember that humans can be just as predatory as any other meat-eating species, and you have to be aware of your surroundings as much as possible if you want to avoid or survive an encounter.

 

[wheelyfun66]

Real life experience is OK, but it doesn't teach with a purpose. being in a fire fight will help you keep your cool, but it doesn't teach you how to shoot.

Perhaps, but give me the dude who has been in a firefight vs the one who went to "training" any day!

 

[SgtLumpy]

... Real life experience is OK, but it doesn't teach with a purpose. Getting punched only tells you what it feels like, it doesn't train you how to punch. So, being in a fire fight will help you keep your cool, but it doesn't teach you how to shoot.

I suggest that a criminal with a gun has a very strong, perhaps much stronger than our, "sense of purpose". We (the good guys) are going into the convenience store to buy a coke. The criminal is going in there to rob, support his habit, "earn" the income necessary for his survival.

Criminals aren't shackled by concepts like "Justified use of force" or "Affirmative defense to prosecution". We are. What may cause us to stumble is not a factor in their training.

Gun course for good guys:
- How to safely handle your gun in storage, carry etc
- How laws relate to your carrying, storing etc
- How laws relate to your having to react "In the Gravest Extreme" [cite Mas, tnx]
- Maybe some marksmanship (not all CCW classes include actual live fire)

Gun course for bad guys:
- To kill someone, shoot him HERE
- Practice that


Sgt Lumpy

 

[Smoke]

Let me ask you this:
Do you have any empty hand training?

I do but I consider it inadequate. I am looking into learning Aikido or some other grappling style because I am too damned old to be throwing round house kicks

Has your training included failure-to-stop drills?

And we have another blind spot in my training. To be honest I never considered failure to stop drills unless you include the 2 COM followed by one in the head method.

In fact it occurred to me while I was writing this that this might be another blind spot because most of my training is focused on qualifying to carry my weapon as a security guard so they stress center of mass hits. Now I’m wondering I’ll go into brain freeze and continue to aim COM if I ever have to engage someone wearing a vest.

 

[Rastoff]

I suggest that a criminal with a gun has a very strong, perhaps much stronger than our, "sense of purpose". We (the good guys) are going into the convenience store to buy a coke. The criminal is going in there to rob, support his habit, "earn" the income necessary for his survival.

I completely agree. This is universally true regardless if it's the first time or the 15th time for the crook. They have the element of surprise.

Criminals aren't shackled by concepts like "Justified use of force" or "Affirmative defense to prosecution". We are. What may cause us to stumble is not a factor in their training.

Also true. This still doesn't change my response.

Gun course for good guys:
- How to safely handle your gun in storage, carry etc
- How laws relate to your carrying, storing etc
- How laws relate to your having to react "In the Gravest Extreme" [cite Mas, tnx]
- Maybe some marksmanship (not all CCW classes include actual live fire)

Gun course for bad guys:
- To kill someone, shoot him HERE
- Practice that


Sgt Lumpy

This may be true for many who carry concealed, but it shouldn't be. In both my martial arts class and defensive pistol class, we teach the value of pain. We teach how to end an altercation as quickly as possible. This is done through strike/shot placement. Learn to use the tools you have effectively. Surviving an attack on the street is not about being nice, it's about applying as much force, effectively, as you can as quickly as you can. It's about stopping the threat using whatever means you have available to you.

I suggest that if your training doesn't include this, look for a different/additional class.

I do but I consider it inadequate. I am looking into learning Aikido or some other grappling style because I am too damned old to be throwing round house kicks

That's good because round house kicks are slow. There are more effective things you can do.

And we have another blind spot in my training. To be honest I never considered failure to stop drills unless you include the 2 COM followed by one in the head method.

Yes, this is the basic idea of a failure to stop, but there's more. Put two controlled shots COM. Move out of the line of fire. Assess the situation. If he continues in your direction, put one in the head. Move out of the line of fire. Assess the situation, check your gun. Is he still coming? If not, tactical reload....you get the idea.

In fact it occurred to me while I was writing this that this might be another blind spot because most of my training is focused on qualifying to carry my weapon as a security guard so they stress center of mass hits. Now I’m wondering I’ll go into brain freeze and continue to aim COM if I ever have to engage someone wearing a vest.

I wouldn't call it a "blind spot" or a "hole" in your training. It's just something more. We ALL can use more training. The fact that you recognize it shows that you're conscious of the fact that you need more training. That is the first step toward learning.

I found the same freeze in my own process. I was in a shoot house running through a scenario. The instructor told me a guy I just shot twice was standing back up. My immediate response was to put two more into COM. The instructor said, with exasperation in his voice, "Is that what we teach?" I then followed with a shot to the head.

No amount of training can prepare you totally for the real thing. It's the combination of training followed up with real experience that makes for a truly skilled defender. I reject the notion that just because a thief has robbed a few convenient stores, he's a skilled opponent. Take that same person and add some quality training in tactics and marksmanship and he becomes truly dangerous. Even so, that doesn't change my response.

 

[Smithsrevenge]

Criminals dont always see a gun and run.

In work i've had numerous criminals jump at me, me draw my duty pistol and them NOT run away and hide, Instead the press further calling me every name in the book saying "shoot me! i dare you *expletive* SHOOT ME!".

Tell ya boys its not a fun situation realizing that once the weapon has been presented it has ZERO effect on the baddie.

Thank god they make tasers once you deploy that they usually beg for forgiveness

 

[Smoke]

I wouldn't call it a "blind spot" or a "hole" in your training. It's just something more. We ALL can use more training. The fact that you recognize it shows that you're conscious of the fact that you need more training. That is the first step toward learning.

Let me clarify, I have heard that in the revolver days cops would be found after a fight with pockets full of brass. The AARs (if you want to call them that) revealed that the cops had been so conditioned to police up their brass at the range that in the middle of a fight they’d reload by dumping the brass into their hand and putting it in their pocket and then loading their gun .

The Shooter at New Life Church was wearing a vest, little known fact Jeanne Assam made repeated hits on his vest but didn’t actually take him off his feet until she hit him in the hip and it was assumed that she wasn’t actually aiming for his hip/pelvic girdle it just happened to be a lucky shot.

All of my training to date has focused on COM shots, my concern is that in a stressful situation (AKA a real gunfight) I will default to my mastered level of training and continue to engage COM even if it’s having no discernible effect on the bad guy.

 

[Smoke]

Thank god they make tasers once you deploy that they usually beg for forgiveness

I got to see a guy get tasered once (for real) afterwards he laid on the ground crying like a baby. One of the cops yelled at him "Shut the Expletive up you Expletive, Expletive. You Expletive started the Expletive fight you Expletive!"

I was doing crowd control and some drunk kept trying to walk around me and right through the cop’s scene after I asked nicely twice the cop turned around and said “He told you not to Expletive walk through here Expletive! If you take one more step I’m going to Expletive face plant you! "

I think Expletive was this guy’s favorite word

 

[Smoke]

In work i've had numerous criminals jump at me, me draw my duty pistol and them NOT run away and hide, Instead the press further calling me every name in the book saying "shoot me! i dare you *expletive* SHOOT ME!".

Did you ? and if not why did you draw it in the first place?

 

[Steve in Vermont]

Did you ? and if not why did you draw it in the first place?

I've had that same experience several times in my career. The perps were usually intoxicated, on drugs or in a rage about something. I drew my gun because I perceived a threat from the subject. If he drew a gun, or knife, from under his shirt or jacket I didn't want to be standing there with my gun strapped in the holster and my thumb up my ***. Remember the Boy Scout motto? Be Prepared. That includes being prepared to shoot someone before he can shoot you. Better to have your gun in hand and not need it than need it and have it in the holster.

 

[WR Moore]

We all remember Bernard Getez? After being mugged in NYC subway before, he armed himself with a M-60 with a 3" BBL. On that day he was confronted by 5 rather large Goblins. He shot all 5. One round each. And saved himself. I do not know how much or what kind of training he had, but living in NYC and having his unregistered gun, I doubt any.

Actually, it was 4 assailants and he put one round into the subway car. Still, 4 out of 5 wasn't bad under the circumstances even at the range involved.

BTW, I've seen 2 guys taken down by headshots. They were one shot stops by concussion. Something you can't count on. The head is a poor target for handguns. Try an alternative.