Training

[gerhard1]

This was touched on in the Factors in Winning Gunfights thread, but it needs further exploration in my opinion.

What type of firearms self-defense training have the folks here had? I'm referring to civilians here, not LE. What type of training would you seek out? Who from?

Do the 'safety rules' at many, if not most, ranges inhibit good self-defense training? Here, I mean not drawing from the holster, the requirement to shoot from a static position, (no moving around while you shoot) and only one shot every ten seconds or however many seconds.

Do these rules, while they might be good for range safety, and good order, hinder developing good self-defense skills?

The question about the rules is a fair one, I believe. Think about it. Do gunfights require not shooting from the draw, or allow only one shot every ten seconds? Do you just stand in one spot in a defensive scenario? I hope that if any of the members here are ever in a gunfight that they move to good cover as fast as they can, shooting, if needed, at their foe while they move. Yet how many of us actually practice this type of shooting?

Granted, most of the rules do have a valid, and very rational reason for being in place, but a compelling case can also be made that they inhibit development of self-defense skills. By making rules intended to cover them for the worst shooters, ranges can make it harder for the more skilled shoters to acquire the tools they need.

 

[robertrwalsh]

Most firing ranges are for familiarization and target practice, with maybe some "qualification shooting" thrown in, not self defense training. Generally you are not allowed to work from the holster and "rapid fire" is discouraged or disallowed. You can't move significantly nor shoot at multiple targets. That is where some sort of "combat competition" such as IDPA or some similar organization is a good thing. It is still a "game" with rules, but moves into the ballpark of serious firearms training.

 

[Wise_A]

The parking lot, maybe.

 

[URIT]

Most gunfights are fought just outside of your reach, so training using close quarters pistol drills are what you want to practice, practice, and practice. You will want to protect your weapon by keeping it close to your body (but not too close) and using your support hand and arm to deflect or cover from a blow. Shoot your attacker anywhere you can -- instep, ankle, knee, pelvis, abdomen, chest, armpit, neck, or head.

Check out this video... [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqNnZKA3s3M[/ame]

 

[Xfuzz]

Regarding the video...
Good info...I suppose.
Seems like the dude on the left could have
at least taken the stinkin price tag off his lid.
Sorry for the drift.

 

[Protected One]

Regarding the video...
Good info...I suppose.
Seems like the dude on the left could have
at least taken the stinkin price tag off his lid.
Sorry for the drift.

The hat was "borrowed", no doubt from GUNSITE because the interviewer came unprepared (eyes/ears/ball cap).
It's going right back on the rack when they finish. That is why the tag wasn't removed.

 

[Protected One]

Shooting ranges at LGS's are not the place for any serious self-defense "training" IMHO. That requires classes specifically geared toward learning the skills, and taught by a qualified instructor.

Everyone has different levels of competence they want to obtain, and finances to put toward it. My plan consist of taking one (1) or more classes each year that progressively adds to my training. I have a list of the training I want to obtain and am progressing nicely through it. Next up is Concealed Carry Tactics Level II, then Shooting In and Around Vehicles, and then Active Shooter Survival. Lastly will be Combat Medical after which I plan to repeat the cycle, perhaps with periodic adjustments.

This I feel will give me the tools to be "reasonably" prepared for any likely situation I may encounter.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

The average gun owner/shooter rarely gets much more training than is necessary to operate the weapon, clean it, and shoot stationary targets. And while I agree with Protected One that certain training, or "tools", are necessary for being reasonably prepared in any scenario it is just not happening for most folks. I could go on and on about this but I won't; suffice it to say that for the variety of situations one COULD be faced with most folks are woefully unprepared.

However, there is another side to that story. Assuming a shooter is sufficiently dedicated to becoming proficient at shooting at a variety of stationary targets, AND is dedicated to the concept of using a weapon for self defense (mind set is critical!) then all that probably needs to be added are two skills - point shooting and shooting under pressure.

If you can successfully train a shooter to hit center of mass on silhouette targets every time and if you can train that shooter to do it under pressure and in low light you have probably taken that person to the highest level of competence they can ever hope to achieve as a self defense shooter.

Since the odds are unlikely that the average self defense shooter will ever get into a prolonged gunfight where cover and concealment are involved he or she will be well served to be able to rapidly get his or her weapon presented for the short fight to come and to get three or four rounds off quickly and accurately to center of mass.

One extra item would be the Mozambique drill, two to the body and one to the head, but now we are talking about fine tuning the basic self defense skills and J-frame shooters and even K-frame shooters can ill afford to waste too much ammunition in a fight if there is more than one active antagonist involved.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

Our little club has a 6 bay 25 yard pistol house, it is marginally OK for marksmanship There is no shooting from the holster!

But I would take the women from church that were interested, and we would use the berm on the 100 yard rifle range and shoot from 5 to 15 yards. and not only shoot from the holster, we would practice shooting from concealed. Jacket pocket, fanny pack, purse, and pants pocket. No one tried a "Flash-bang" bra, every woman I ask thought they were stupid! (except for the gal selling them!)

When I told the club officers what we were doing, I got a startled look. I ask if there was a problem (I'm thinking liability), but the club president says, "Hell yes there's a problem, ... I have never once fired from concealed! That is a real problem!" So you never see anyone practicing firing from concealed, but many of us use the outdoor ranges. We find out what does and doesn't work for each individual, we don't take the work from some U-Tube "Expert". I have gotten pointers from my F-I-L He had the highest NRA certs and 27 years Instructing police. Then I ask his wife, a 24 year officer, and she had all manner of tricks from undercover female cops. (4 different ways to draw from an ankle holster!)

Ivan

 

[Wise_A]

Honestly, if you have a working firearm that you can get into action in a timely fashion, you're way more prepared than 95% of the people who've survived gunfights.

Yeah, more training is great, but you don't need to delve into Advanced Ninja Crouch-Jump Shooting. Diminishing returns apply.

 

[ladder13]

The hat was "borrowed", no doubt from GUNSITE because the interviewer came unprepared (eyes/ears/ball cap).
It's going right back on the rack when they finish. That is why the tag wasn't removed.

Ewwwww

 

[CB3]

1. At home, move, draw from concealment, dry fire while moving. Get a feel for it. From retention. Extended. Gain confidence.
2. Buy an Airsoft pistol similar to your carry gun. I have two FS M&P airsofts. They fit my carry holster. I shoot in my garage. I put together some vertical triangle cardboard targets and suspend them from the ceiling. The slow moving pellets are pretty easy to see in good light, and you can hear when they hit the cardboard. Eventually, dim the lights. Put obstacles in the way for your footwork.
3. Everything you need to do to practice at a full motion live range can be duplicated elsewhere without live fire.
4. Take real defensive shooting classes after.
5. Definitely enroll in a force-on-force class. Then when you see how poorly you’ve done, go home and do the dry practice again.

Or, just take the word of truly experienced gunfighters: don’t bother to train or make all this ridiculous effort. Just trust you will be luckier than the person(s) attacking you.

Yeah, right.

 

[Ziggy2525]

I try to take one or two pistol self defense training courses a year through a local training company. They have an outdoor range that allows a lot of movement. The indoor range I regularly shoot at (usually weekly) allows holster draw and rapid fire if you attend their “holster cert” class, but it’s still limited to strong side holsters with pretty limited lateral movement and keeping all your shots in your 4’ wide lane.

To augment that I dry fire with movement in the basement three or four evenings a week and try to shoot a local IDPA match monthly.

 

[LPD256]

Regarding the video...
Good info...I suppose.
Seems like the dude on the left could have
at least taken the stinkin price tag off his lid.
Sorry for the drift.

When you do a class at Gunsite, they have you pin your name tag to the back of your hat so the Rangemaster can read your name without walking in front of the firing line. In a class of 14 they figure it out pretty quickly. Still have my name tag, but I removed it from the back of my hat to keep people behind me from knowing my name......

 

[white cloud]

The news around here as of late shows a lot of violence. I don't care what the FBI says, this is not getting better. Intellectually I understand that training is good thing. The problem is relevance to my situation in life.

I have taken some training locally, maybe five or 6 courses. One was a tactical carbine course that was taught "one on one" by an Army Ranger. I learned a lot about fighting with an carbine. The problem is I don't think I will ever need to fight with a carbine.

The rest were handgun-centric courses taught by ex police or ex military. A lot of the material did not seem relevant to me as an older civilian. I am pretty fit for my age but I am a 66 year old man. I am not carrying a Glock 17 with two extra magazines. I am carrying a 649 in my pocket. I need to know what to do if things "head south" in the Whole Foods. I have worked through some scenarios with my wife, I practice and my equipment is sorted out. Maybe thats enough? Comments and criticism welcome.

 

[Wise_A]

Ewwwww

I thought the exact same thing. Especially given what I'm sure they charge for those hats.

And for...*ahem*. Guys. I know what you charge for the classes. Just give the damn hats out for free. You don't need to monetize that hard.

 

[prplbkrr]

The private, outdoor range I belong to allows any reasonable, safe gunplay, and I take full advantage of that policy.

I practice my draws and reloads on a timer, moving and shooting, barricades, weak hand manipulations, lying on my back with arms extended downrange. (Try that one, it's like shooting upside down.)

There are a dozen steel plates, 4" , 8" and 12" hanging on chains to practice my speed shooting, as well as a conventional plate rack. Point blank to 75 yds if you wish. I do 'em at 15 yds.

I have taken a couple of classes and practice the drills I was taught twice a week. Even when it's -5* and a foot of snow. But not the lying-on-my-back drill.

There is no range officer. The powers-that-be expect members to act like safe responsible adults, but they let me practice my real (or fantasy) world scenarios.

I do this kind of stuff when I am the only one at the range. The club pres. and sec'y have seen me "play". They are cool (and I detect a little envious) with it. (Not my shooting skills, but that a 60 y.o. can still move like I do.)

I guess the point of this reply is.... I agree with the OP. You're gonna fight like you train. If you can only stand in your lane and shoot at static targets, you aren't practicing to be a gunfighter. You are practicing to be a good shooter.

 

[Fernando]

Some help please.

I have seen movement mentioned several times, what do you mean when you say movement. What is the reason for movement?

 

[Ziggy2525]

Some help please.

I have seen movement mentioned several times, what do you mean when you say movement. What is the reason for movement?

There’s movement and maneuvering.

Movement...
Basic side step left or right when you draw and shoot. Serves two purposes. First, if the BG is expecting compliance and you move, it may trip up his thought process momentarily (disrupt his OODA loop) to give you a better opportunity to shoot. Second, if BG has finger on trigger pointing pistol at you, when you shoot him his reaction to being shot may be pulling the trigger. Side stepping moves you away from his muzzle.

Maneuvering...
Explosive move away from BG to better cover or at least a better shooting position. I’ve aged past the ability for explosive movement (if I ever had it), but if you can still move fast, a fast maneuver to better cover is a possibility.

I’m sure there are lots of other possibilities.

 

[gerhard1]

Some help please.

I have seen movement mentioned several times, what do you mean when you say movement. What is the reason for movement?

One is it gets you out of the way, if the bad guy is coming towards you, and two, it forces your foe to react to you, adding an element of unpredictability.

Anyone care to add to this?

The most logical movement, IMO, is either laterally (right or left) or at a diagonal (10 o'clock or 2 o'clock). If you move to your rear, you run the risk of falling on your butt, so that is one direction that I'd probably avoid.

Hope this helps.

 

[CB3]

Movement makes the attacker reassess the attack. Because there is always some degree of reaction time--from a split second to more than a second--you can actually avoid getting shot or stabbed or hit by moving as little as a couple of feet. The faster you do this, the less likely you are to be hurt. AND the more likely you are to start gaining an advantage if you are going to attack (not defend).

With a number of people on a line of shooters in a class, it is safer and easier to have everyone practice taking a step to one side as directed, then to fire. It's really pretty silly. If you are going to move, and your survival instinct will probably kick in and make you really move, one step is inadequate. Bursting off the X (where you are) is natural. Moving diagonally toward the left or right of the aggressor makes it harder for him to track you and pursue his attack. You, on the other hand, know what you are doing and gain time to draw and fire.

Movement is life. Standing still is . . . at the very least, unnatural, unless you are unprepared and untrained, in which case you may freeze in place.

 

[Whitwabit]

I have the ability to shoot on my property and found shooting while moving decreased my standing still group sizes .. Not sure the reason other then concentration on what your shooting while moving is much more intense then ones normal stand in front of target range time ,,

Ones breathing is more realistic to what an actual incident would be and heart rate and the adenine rush is there too .. you might be humbled to find how bad you shoot while moving the first time you try .. I recommend you find somewhere you can shoot while moving ..

I occasionally will add a bit of sound realism by using party poppers to add what sounds like return gunfire ..

 

[gerhard1]

Movement makes the attacker reassess the attack. Because there is always some degree of reaction time--from a split second to more than a second--you can actually avoid getting shot or stabbed or hit by moving as little as a couple of feet. The faster you do this, the less likely you are to be hurt. AND the more likely you are to start gaining an advantage if you are going to attack (not defend).

With a number of people on a line of shooters in a class, it is safer and easier to have everyone practice taking a step to one side as directed, then to fire. It's really pretty silly. If you are going to move, and your survival instinct will probably kick in and make you really move, one step is inadequate. Bursting off the X (where you are) is natural. Moving diagonally toward the left or right of the aggressor makes it harder for him to track you and pursue his attack. You, on the other hand, know what you are doing and gain time to draw and fire.

Movement is life. Standing still is . . . at the very least, unnatural, unless you are unprepared and untrained, in which case you may freeze in place.

This is one advantage of having your own range. It allows more freedom of movement.

 

[gerhard1]

I have the ability to shoot on my property and found shooting while moving decreased my standing still group sizes .. Not sure the reason other then concentration on what your shooting while moving is much more intense then ones normal stand in front of target range time ,,

Ones breathing is more realistic to what an actual incident would be and heart rate and the adenine rush is there too .. you might be humbled to find how bad you shoot while moving the first time you try .. I recommend you find somewhere you can shoot while moving ..

I occasionally will add a bit of sound realism by using party poppers to add what sounds like return gunfire ..

If anyone here is in the southern Kansas--northern Oklahoma area, and wants to shoot with me, please feel free to PM me and we might work something out.

 

[LPD256]

There are lots of training classes out there that will teach shooting and tactics. There are some competitions such as IDPA, 3gun, etc. So if one wants to learn and increase skill sets there is training available. Where that training falls short in my estimation is that one’s mindset and the legalities of shooting someone are just as important as the physicality of employing the firearm. I was fortunate to have an opportunity to take the MAG40 class from Massad Ayoob. Half of the class was in the classroom discussing what really happens when one uses deadly force. To me that was the most enlightening and important part of the course.

 

[Ziggy2525]

...
With a number of people on a line of shooters in a class, it is safer and easier to have everyone practice taking a step to one side as directed, then to fire. It's really pretty silly. If you are going to move, and your survival instinct will probably kick in and make you really move, one step is inadequate. Bursting off the X (where you are) is natural. Moving diagonally toward the left or right of the aggressor makes it harder for him to track you and pursue his attack. You, on the other hand, know what you are doing and gain time to draw and fire.
...

The first few defensive pistol classes I took, the side step on the line was always presented as a placeholder for a larger move. In the last couple years I'm starting to see guys like Tom Givens, Dave Spaulding, and John Murphy recommending a hard, fast step or two left or right while drawing. Not the cheesy step left/step right you see on a training line. They might have been recommending it before, but I hadn't seen it. The move is usually proceeded by a stupid question like "What's your dog's name?" or "What's your mom's name?" to break the BG's train of thought. From what I've read, they've pressure tested it using marker cartridges, etc.

If a BG has you at gunpoint from 20' away, a single step and a stupid question won't do anything. If you're at the register in a convenience store and the BG is within arms length, you're surrounded by shelves. Where are you going to bust off the X to? A side step may be all you have.

 

[WR Moore]

As a long term instructor I have to quibble with anyone describing IDPA, IPSC or USPSA as "training". It does allow you to experience shooting from a holster, "cover" and moving with a gun, possibly shooting on the move. The issue is that what advice you may get during the walk through isn't training and often has nothing to do with what one needs to do in the real world. The post above about the baby step moves that "doesn't disturb the sight picture" is correct. If you're trying to avoid a charging dude with a contact weapon, you want to MOVE!

It does, however, put you under pressure to perform which is a good thing. It's better if you can get some actual training in the above issues and use those methods in the matches. Yeah, you'll lose some time doing things in a more realistic manner but you're not really there for the trophies.

Yes, you can dry fire a lot of this stuff, but you still need to do it for real occasionally.

 

[LPD256]

WR Moore-I agree wholeheartedly with your opinion that IPSC, IDPA, and the like aren’t training. Experiences with a little pressure, holster work, reloads, and use of cover are good practice. And fun. My range has moving targets and all kinds of fun gadgets like red/blue flashing lights and it can create a fun challenge or competition between friends. My thought is the would be gunslingers need to be aware that every bullet in a gunfight has an attorney attached to it. And can ruin your life if you aren’t careful. I’m going to protect me and my loved ones and get the heck out if I can. Although I’m fully capable if necessary.

 

[pawncop]

From my perspective, training is learning a new skill.


Practice (and at first this needs to be under supervision, to ensure no bad habits creep in) is the repetition to develop the new skill into a habit.


To consider all the factors in combat shooting, there are a number of skills to master.


Standing on a firing line should develop marksmanship, a core skill.


Weapon presentation (drawing from whatever device to secure the weapon) is another and so on...


The trick is to determine what the needs for an individual are, and address them accordingly.


As I come closer to retirement, my needs will change and skills I learned will begin to fade (I will no longer practice catching my rear sight on my boot to chamber a round).


First learn what you really need, then go from there.


I hope you find this helpful.

 

[Fernando]

Thanks to all for answering my question on movement.

I have been looking at some classes and instructors but movement has me interested, it makes sense.

Who would be best to take a class from that emphasises movement