Trigger Reality

[ATF]

I'm really bored with listening to all the trigger complaints about the M&P. Sure the Apex full kit will make the M&P a better and even my favorite pistol but most people can't tell the difference.
To back up this statement I recently sold around a dozen revolvers and semi-autos and what really surprised me was that not one single buyer could tell the difference with the triggers. Ok they didn't shoot them but they couldn't tell the difference as to what had been modified and what hadn't. I have a very sensitive feel and I never measure the pull of a trigger but I know what feels right and what's wrong just by dry firing. I was honestly shocked by the ignorance of these people who really couldn't tell the difference. I know there are are plenty of people who can feel the difference but after this experience I think they are few and far between.

 

[Donn]

Thank you, ATF. Said the same for years. Most, (not all), shooters never heard of trigger reset before they read about it on line. My guess is they still don't have a clue. Your survey pretty much proves it.

 

[MyDads38]

New shooters don't usually know what to look for and are at the mercy of whoever sells them their first firearm. The net is a great place for info, but it's not ALL true or accurate.

As posted above, in all my years of pistol/revolver shooting, I've never measured the pull on any of my guns. Some are lighter, some are crisper breaking and some are smoother. I've never had trigger/action work done on any handgun I've ever owned, I just learned to shoot it as it was. Could some have been better? Of course they could have! I have an SD9VE and 2 M&P's; could they be "better"? Probably so, but they are "service grade" pistols, not target pistols. My SD9VE has a very smooth trigger, the M&P's have a lighter trigger pull; my 1911-well, no comparison, but it's the factory trigger it came with out of the box.

I didn't know what shooting to re-set was until I started reading/watching videos on the subject. I don't, not going to start, that's just me. I'm not a "tacti-cool" kind of guy.

 

[MichiganScott]

i suspect the vast majority of shooters that complain about the M&P triggers have never learned to shoot a DA revolver double action. If I want a trigger that breaks like a 1911, I shoot a 1911.

I never heard of the concept of shooting to trigger reset before I started reading these forums, either.

 

[CaptRon956]

I started off shooting revolvers back in 1989 (model 686 was my first handgun)and I just got a Shield 9 this past Christmas as my first semi auto and IMO, it already comes stock with a "hair trigger"....
MyDads38 nailed it, these pistols are "service grade", they're not target grade pistols. I was going to buy a M&P .22 compact for that... It takes time & a lot of lead downrange before the Shield loosens up. I bought my Shield 9mm for my EDC & home defense, last thing i want is a hair trigger tucked in my pants. I think a lot of new shooters join the forums, get caught up in all the talk, run out & buy their Shield's and start modding right away without giving the gun a chance to break in, smooth out and basically get to know the weapon in it's stock form...
The first thing I usually do with a new pistol is to shoot it, shoot it often and get used to it. I put just over 600 rounds thru my M&P shield 9mm this past month and it is smooth as butter. Disassemby & reassembly is a breeze, mostly because I cleaned it after every time at the range and I got to know the pistol. Now my S&W comes with a lifetime service warranty, I would imagine replacing the trigger with a after market one would void that warranty... No, I wouldnt change a thing on mine, I love this pistol!

P.S. I didnt know about the trigger reset until after reading the owners manual

 

[MyDads38]

ATF, Donn, MichiganScott and CaptRon956-Thank you!

I thought I was the only one who had never heard of shooting to re-set!
Guess I should come out from under my rock more often LOL

 

[Rastoff]

I'm really bored with listening to all the trigger complaints about the M&P. Sure the Apex full kit will make the M&P a better and even my favorite pistol but most people can't tell the difference.

I agree. What's even more disturbing is the complaints about the trigger that have nothing to do with the actual trigger pull. For example, people complain about the "gritty" trigger. The M&P trigger is actually quite crisp, creep free and not gritty at all. What they are feeling is the slack or take up which, if proper trigger control is exercised, won't even be felt during a normal trigger press.

I thought I was the only one who had never heard of shooting to re-set!

A quick note about shooting-to-reset; this is a misnomer.

I don't know of any instructors that teach this. However, there may be a difference in terminology so, I'd like to address this if I may.

Reset is part of the action of the trigger. As the gun is fired, the sear must be reset or the gun cannot be fired again. The concept is to press the trigger and hold it back, or "trap", the trigger until a second sight picture is obtained. Then release the trigger just to the point where the sear resets. The end result is good trigger control. Allowing the trigger finger to just fly off the trigger after the shot usually leads to slapping at the trigger for the follow up shot; that is poor trigger control.

Under extremely fast shooting, two shots in under 1 second for example, it is unlikely that the shooter will be able to feel, let alone hear, the reset. So, the idea is not to shoot-to-reset, but to control the trigger by making each shot an intentional press rather than slapping at the trigger.

The reset is used as a tool during training and practice, both dry and live, to teach trigger control. Attempting to shoot-to-reset is futile because of the action and sound during defensive shooting.

 

[Kanewpadle]

It's personal preference. There are some of us with just as much experience that like to improve a trigger to what WE like. Doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.

 

[Muss Muggins]

I agree. What's even more disturbing is the complaints about the trigger that have nothing to do with the actual trigger pull. For example, people complain about the "gritty" trigger. The M&P trigger is actually quite crisp, creep free and not gritty at all. What they are feeling is the slack or take up which, if proper trigger control is exercised, won't even be felt during a normal trigger press.



A quick note about shooting-to-reset; this is a misnomer.

I don't know of any instructors that teach this. However, there may be a difference in terminology so, I'd like to address this if I may.

Reset is part of the action of the trigger. As the gun is fired, the sear must be reset or the gun cannot be fired again. The concept is to press the trigger and hold it back, or "trap", the trigger until a second sight picture is obtained. Then release the trigger just to the point where the sear resets. The end result is good trigger control. Allowing the trigger finger to just fly off the trigger after the shot usually leads to slapping at the trigger for the follow up shot; that is poor trigger control.

Under extremely fast shooting, two shots in under 1 second for example, it is unlikely that the shooter will be able to feel, let alone hear, the reset. So, the idea is not to shoot-to-reset, but to control the trigger by making each shot an intentional press rather than slapping at the trigger.

The reset is used as a tool during training and practice, both dry and live, to teach trigger control. Attempting to shoot-to-reset is futile because of the action and sound during defensive shooting.

I will respectfully disagree with the latter part of your post regarding reset. Many, many trainers, including Glock factory trainers, teach shooting to reset. My reset experience is with Glock, and I have a lot of it. When properly trained and experienced, shooting to reset with a Glock is as second nature as breathing. I have seen three casings from a Glock still in the air as the fourth round is fired. It's one of the reasons that I personally stick with Glock and Kel Tec, and 1911's for my semi auto defense guns. The reset and feel is similar. Kahr's reset is a day and half and 100 yards long, as is Sig and S&W DA/SA pistols. The M&P striker fired pistols have a trigger that's not even in the same zip code as a Glock. I'll agree that if you choose not to attempt to master reset for your firearm, then you should worry more about grip, stance, and sight alignment sight picture.

 

[S&W Rover]

I think the thing new owners notice most in M&Ps is the "gritty" feeling in the M&P trigger. The trigger isn't really "gritty," but something is going on that people notice.

I think this refers to the feeling transmitted directly to the finger as the trigger bar moves to the rear and pushes up (or "climbs") the edge of the striker block and begins to move that piece upwards. This feeling has nothing to do with the actual sear "break." This feeling will go away, mostly, as the pieces wear in together. Or, it can be eliminated immediately with an Apex USB, or by rounding the striker block a la Burwell, and a LITTLE stoning of the top of the trigger bar.

 

[CaptRon956]

It is possible that what some users are really feeling is the two piece trigger itself. When pulling the trigger with your finger too high, sometimes that safety block that is on the upper part of the trigger can lightly strike or rub on the frame causing a "gritty" feeling when pulling the trigger back... I found that proper finger placement on the trigger eliminates that...

 

[andrewcdub]

To say that Apex Kits are not needed is too broad of a statement IMO. Not all pistols will be the same out of the box as can be seen by threads of folks not happy with them. My 45fs was fine out of the box but not having that much experience at the time with polymer pistols I figured it was the norm. It wasn't until I shot the shield that I realized the 45fs came with a pretty gritty trigger.

 

[shawn mccarver]

Shooting to re-set is, in its simplest terms, "short-stroking." If you short-stroke just a little too short, you will have a problem which could be embarrassing or worse in a gunfight. Short-stroking is mostly a range matter for people who think they have discovered the "holy grail" of shooting technique.

The fact that some "Glock trainer" teaches it is not entirely unexpected, as that is the "company line." Glock advances that method as one of the perceived advantages of the Glock design. I like Glocks as well as anyone, and I think the Glock 17 is perhaps the most reliable and durable pistol on the market today, but I do not shoot them by short-stroking the trigger.

Apparently, no one learned on a revolver. Those who have experienced the "short-stroke lock-up" with a revolver will likely NEVER repeat that mistake with any platform, Glock or otherwise. The S&W revolver owner's manual cautions strongly against this method of shooting, which many have tried to use with revolvers, having been taught this unfortunate technique as the "gospel" with the semi-auto. It all started with the Glock pistol. No one had heard of "short-stroking" as a legitimate technique until someone dreamed it up with the Glock. Up until then, short-stroking was a big no-no.

The usual reason advanced for short-stroking the pistol is getting your sights back on target and having a faster follow-up shot. As to range and match shooting, neither Mr. Latham nor Mr. Miculek short-stroke their triggers and I don't know of too many people who are faster and more accurate than they are.

As to "real life" training, two of the most respected trainers are Mr. Vickers and Mr. Hackathorn. Both have "been there and done that." Both have said that "shooting to re-set" is the "biggest training scar" of the modern age. That is because the vast majority who use it are releasing the trigger more slowly to feel for or hear the re-set, and then, to make up for lost time, jerk the trigger to "catch up." This is, of course, conducive to poor shooting. I agree that a select few can pull it off properly. It is sort of like hip-shooting aspirin tablets with your revolver. Bill Jordan could do it, as could a select few. Most, however, cannot afford the investment in ammo.

As to slapping the trigger being a perceived disadvantage if you do not "short-stroke" the trigger, Mr. Leatham actually describes his technique in those exact words as have those who have described his trigger control method. And he seems to shoot pretty accurately.

Everyone is free to shoot any way they like.

If you like to short-stroke your trigger, feel free. However, please don't assume you are operating with some "ray gun" advantage. It simply does not make the vast majority of people better shooters, and it can do some harm. Enough said.

 

[aceridr50]

I personally disagree

I'm really bored with listening to all the trigger complaints about the M&P. Sure the Apex full kit will make the M&P a better and even my favorite pistol but most people can't tell the difference.
To back up this statement I recently sold around a dozen revolvers and semi-autos and what really surprised me was that not one single buyer could tell the difference with the triggers. Ok they didn't shoot them but they couldn't tell the difference as to what had been modified and what hadn't. I have a very sensitive feel and I never measure the pull of a trigger but I know what feels right and what's wrong just by dry firing. I was honestly shocked by the ignorance of these people who really couldn't tell the difference. I know there are are plenty of people who can feel the difference but after this experience I think they are few and far between.

I just got back not an hour ago from the range trying out my M&P 9 after installing the Apex FSS kit and to say the difference is like night and day would be an understatement. From a rest, out of the box I was lucky to shoot 6-8 inch groups at 7 yards. With the Apex kit I was hitting consistent 2" groups. Now I'm not a professional shooter by any stretch of the imagination but I enjoy shooting the pistol now more than I ever thought I would when I first shot it. It has made me a lot better shot and to Apex I thank them immensely for the great product they put out. When I can enjoy shooting a striker fired pistol as much as I like shooting my 1911 that is saying something.

 

[touchoneoff]

I'm really bored with listening to all the trigger complaints about the M&P. Sure the Apex full kit will make the M&P a better and even my favorite pistol but most people can't tell the difference.
To back up this statement I recently sold around a dozen revolvers and semi-autos and what really surprised me was that not one single buyer could tell the difference with the triggers. Ok they didn't shoot them but they couldn't tell the difference as to what had been modified and what hadn't. I have a very sensitive feel and I never measure the pull of a trigger but I know what feels right and what's wrong just by dry firing. I was honestly shocked by the ignorance of these people who really couldn't tell the difference. I know there are are plenty of people who can feel the difference but after this experience I think they are few and far between.

Yeah, I have to agree here. I actually prefer, on a hand gun that is, a heavier trigger pull. On a rifle? Different story.

 

[BigCityChief]

Yeah, I have to agree here. I actually prefer, on a hand gun that is, a heavier trigger pull. On a rifle? Different story.

A man after my own heart.[emoji106]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ATF]

I never said the Apex kits are not a desirable upgrade to the M&P I was talking about a broad range of pistols and these people were not first time shooters but they had no idea what was the better trigger. Even with exactly the same pistols side by side with different triggers.
For example if you go on the Sig Forum and talk about shooting your DA/SA in SA you will be shot down in flames. They all say you should fire DA first. Well if that's the case why do Sig and many other manufacturers make SAO pistols and most 1911 owners carry them cocked and locked?
As several posters have mentioned there seems to be a lot of information on the internet that makes people automatically think there is only one right answer.
Don't get me started one wine and whisky most people can't tell the difference either.

 

[CarrieC]

I agree ATF but just an observation of mine, the combination of internet based "wisdom" and the Tacticool revolution have been morphed with the paintballer flutter finger firing mentality and brought us to this. An ever growing percentage of new gun owners seem to come directly from this pool. The sum of their "experience" rarely includes a life growing up hunting/shooting with family and friends while being taught respect and appreciation for the weapons we enjoy. Looks like a generational/geographical thing to me and like every generation before us that has complained about the apparent lack of respect for the past and rejection of anything that might be construed as "old School", we grumble. Some of the new products like Apex are very well done and I use them, others.... I am just happy to live in a country where we can enjoy this kind of diversity. Increases the fun factor and provides us with amusement as well. Like Grandpa said, "That there common sense aint so common."

 

[ATF]

CarrieC very well said. There are even trigger upgrades for Remington 870's. Well if Remington can't get a trigger right in over 50 years of production what hope do we have?

 

[Rastoff]

Shooting to re-set is, in its simplest terms, "short-stroking."

Not at all. If a trigger is short stroked then the gun won't fire because it wasn't allowed to reset. I do agree that shooting-to-reset could lead to short stroking the trigger.