Trigger Swap...what you did and why?

[tat2dchad]

Opinions and why?
switching your trigger do you....
A. leave factory trigger?
B.Aluminum
C.Polymer
just curious as to what way you went and what was your reason. as well as difference between factory and your choice
Thank You

first time gun owner... I picked up an M&P40 and i have read so many people say switch the trigger to an APex. not i did find the trigger seemed a little heavy but my question is this...

if i do change the trigger and lets say the day comes and i have to use the gun for self defense, even if the shooting were justified , I could later be sued by the family because i "modified" the gun.

fact or fiction?

 

[USMarine1989]

Check with your local and state laws, but in self defense, no, the conscious decision the totality of the circumstances and if the subject was walking or running away in other words was or is a threat still present, other than that as far as modifications done to your firearm (legally) you are good on that end. If there are any other LEO's that would like to get in on this please do.

 

[bobelk99]

first time gun owner... I picked up an M&P40 and i have read so many people say switch the trigger to an APex. not i did find the trigger seemed a little heavy but my question is this...

if i do change the trigger and lets say the day comes and i have to use the gun for self defense, even if the shooting were justified , I could later be sued by the family because i "modified" the gun.

fact or fiction?

If you shoot, you will be sued.

IF shooting is found to be justified, you are clean. Problem is a grand jury may not share your view. Make d*** sure if is 'necessary'.

 

[robkarrob]

The following is something I post when people start discussing the legal consequences of modifying a gun.

The only way a modified gun would have any bearing on a criminal or civil case would be if it was accidentally fired. All my handguns have modifications that allow me to shoot better. I am not the least bit concerned about legal problems. The guns are easier for me to shoot and shoot more accurately, while remaining safe to handle. I am a former LEO and know the difference between intent and accidental discharge.

Accidental discharge is the question. With a bone stock gun, you will be liable, as somehow during handling of the gun it discharged. Depending on the circumstances you could face criminal charges, but for injury or death you would likely face civil charges. The civil attorney suing you may also go after the gun manufacturer, (unsafe design, and deep pockets). With modifications to a gun, the first question would be "could those modifications have made the gun less safe than the stock gun? Was the cause of the discharge related to any of the modifications?" If the answer is yes, or could be yes, to either of those questions, then you could criminally face some type of negligent charges (you did not intend it to happen). If you are sued in a civil court, the modifications will be used to convince the jury to award higher damages, as the gun was "not safe and was more likely to discharge". With modifications to the gun, the gun manufacturer would most likely not be included in the lawsuit as your modifications made the gun less safe.

The above is for accidental discharge. If you shoot someone with intent (you thought about it, took action, and completed your intent), then any modifications would not matter. It is like someone said, "if you had a trigger pull that was so light it would fire if a fly landed on the trigger", it still would not matter. It was not an accidental discharge. You had intent (thought about shooting the person, even for only a second). You took action (you aimed the gun and pulled the trigger). You completed your intent (the gun fired and the bullet hit your target). In this situation, depending on the circumstances, the charges could be nothing (a self defense situation) all the way up to first degree murder (you planned it and carried it out). Even if this shooting was determined to be an obvious SD situation, and no criminal charges are filed, you still will likely be sued by the victim, or the victim's family. You could be totally in the right by defending yourself or family, and you will still be sued. Most people are not aware of the costs of defending themselves in a "good" shooting. As we all know, in our country you can sue for almost anything. The costs for defending yourself would fall upon you, with little chance of recovering those costs. Many people have gone bankrupt, from attorney fees, defending themselves from a civil trial for damages. I am not saying to not shoot because you may get sued. I would shoot to save a life, but I know what the results of that shooting could be.

If you shoot someone and intended to shoot them, it would not matter at all how you modified the gun. NOT AT ALL. You had the intent to shoot them as you thought about it and decided to shoot. It would not matter if it had a "hair trigger"? It would not matter if you eliminated the manual safety? Those modifications had no bearing on the shooting. You aimed the gun and pulled the trigger. Whether the trigger pulled easier, or you didn't have to release the safety first, it wouldn't matter.

That is why I am always thinking about different scenarios involving SD situations. What would I do, how would I react, what would justify my pulling the trigger. As a LEO I always had the mindset that I would never shoot anyone unless it was a life or death situation, even though we could shoot for felony situations. I would only shoot to protect myself or to protect the life of someone else, who was threatened with imminent death, or to stop someone, who would not lay down or surrender that weapon.

Bob

 

[OKFC05]

I could later be sued by the family because i "modified" the gun.

You can be sued in most states for any number of reasons, and you will be vilified and subject to intense scrutiny. Will any of it affect the outcome? Don't know until you get to the actual specifics--and that's the way it is. A man in LA was sued for shooting a convicted felon to stop him from finishing off a LEO, and he had to spend money to defend himself, in spite of the police statement that he was a hero for saving the LEO's life.

 

[CB3]

if i do change the trigger and lets say the day comes and i have to use the gun for self defense, even if the shooting were justified , I could later be sued by the family because i "modified" the gun.

fact or fiction?

True, you could be sued.

The trigger changes would have no bearing unless the shooting was a negligent discharge, for which you would be criminally and civilly liable, with too light a modified trigger being a contributing cause.

Four pounds is considered the bottom end of safe triggers for most experienced shooters, and 5 lbs is usually considered very safe (depending somewhat on length of pull). The Apex kits will usually produce safe, defensible triggers.

You may get one of the better new S&W triggers that is supposed to break at ~5.5 lbs. Most are heavier (up to 9 lbs.), and are not smooth and will have one or more hitches as various mechanical parts interact. The Apex parts can slightly shorten a trigger pull, move the break forward, lighten it, and definitely smooth it out. Worth it to me.

Some say shooting hundreds of rounds will gradually polish certain mating surfaces and improve the feel of the stock trigger. I'm too impatient to wait for this gradual change that doesn't ever really reach the greatly improved feel of an Apex kit.

I want my self defense carry pistol set up to be a top performer from the start:

Polished feed ramp and chamber (Me, Dremel)
Slide release adjusted to be quicker (Me)
Polished trigger bar (Me)
Trigger system improved (Me, Apex parts)
Grip improved (Me, Talon rubber grips)
Mag extensions for extra high capacity on back up mags (From TTI)
Extra mags
Good AIWB holster (Bladetech Nano)
And as soon as I can, a good red dot sight (RDS) milled on to the slide with tall suppressor sights for a lower 1/3 cowitness. Before I spend that $$, I want to make sure everything else is functioning 100%.

 

[Rastoff]

The question is not if you can be sued. You can be sued for anything. The real question is, will modifying your trigger be a factor that will result in your incarceration.

I know of no case where a modified gun was the factor that put a person in prison.

 

[Captain Skippy]

I mean no disrespect to any posters when I say the following: I only saw one law enforcement person in the previous post. Were any of the others attorneys? I dealt with lawyers for 27 years as a police officer. While some were good honest people, some were the most evil bunch of liars on God's green earth. They would use the most insignificant item or theory to confuse the jury or discredit the officer's or witness testimony. The only modification our department allowed was better sights and rubber grip sleeves and as I was retiring attached lights/lasers. The only pistol I have had a trigger job in was my M&P .45FS and that was done by the factory thereby alleviating any liability on me. Read Mas Ayoob's ideas on pistol mods. He has more experience in this area than the rest of us. And remember if God forbid you are ever in a shooting your firearm will be seized and examined by a law enforcement crime lab and possibly a lab hired by the attorney representing the person you shot. Think about that for a minute. Is your local law enforcement pro civilian carry? And the lab the lawyer hires will certainly be on the side of the lawyer.

 

[VonHoffmann]

Not sure which Apex trigger you are looking at but I originally purchased the Apex FSS for my S&W M&P .40 FS. While i loved the trigger I also found it too light for daily carry use.

I then purchased and installed the Duty Carry version trigger kit with the aluminum trigger and find it to be perfect for carry.

I also feel a little more secure from a legal stand point carrying it with the DCAEK as opposed to the FSS.

 

[CB3]

Re: LEO Liability

It's different than for a civilian. Actually a higher standard for the LEO because of training, responsibility and authority. Nonetheless, within many departments, differently trained officers use different weapons, drive different vehicles, use different paraphernalia depending on their assignments.

What matters for both LEOs and civilians is whether or not the shoot was legally justified, and whether any other factor, such as a modified trigger, can be justified and explained clearly as being an advantage rather than a liability. Here is where a good lawyer who understands both the system and firearms, along with a very credible expert witness or two, make a big difference.

If your trigger was not modified the other side will either find or make up something else against which you will have to defend yourself.

If you make a change to any firearm you may use for self defense from stock factory, you need to be able to articulate why the change made the weapon easier for you to shoot quickly and safely, including even a rubber grip enhancement or better sights.

If you choose to make critical life saving decisions based on statistical improbabilities and lack of full knowledge, you bear other consequences as well as the supposed legal ones.

I would have sold my Shield and my FS M&P 9 rather than use them with the garbage triggers they came with. I sent the FS back to S&W, and while they improved the trigger, I still would not use it for self defense. This is true for the majority of guns I have purchased recently.

Sucky trigger, sucky gun.

 

[tat2dchad]

thank you all for the answers etc. i do enjoy the gun but the trigger def seems to be very heavy and the reset can be hard to find. I am a disabled person so the gun is very important to me. i own a tattoo shop and well as much as i hate to say it...a lot of my customers are not the nice and clean people you would like to deal with. i just want something i can trust and feel safe with both at the range and on my hip

 

[M&PmikeC]

so I want to hear an answer from the retired police officer in this thread cause I found your reply to be more straight forward and sincere... Im a new gun owner.. New to pistols ive been a hunter since I was 14.. I practice safe gun control and safe practices... so heres my question.. its 3am im in my home asleep and my family asleep aswell.. We hear a bang or something.. My wife wakes me before owning a pistol I would walk out and look for said noise... Now im going to be quiet and grab my pistol.. I walk out and find said intruder... 1. do I shoot 1st and answer ?s to police later... 2. do I yell and say something to the intruder to get his attention to scare him away and then call police... and if I were to shoot is it in my best interest to shoot to kill or harm the intruder.. I was told that in a s/d situation that I should intend to kill the intruder and that Id better shoot him in the chest and not running away and also that he should still be in the home.. Im asking cause these are things I have looked for on the internet and cannot get clarity from.. and the people who tell me the things ive mentioned before are not professional business lawyers or police by any means so its basically heresay... basically being a home owner with a family and a GUN OWNER. I almost feel that if I were to have an intruder break into my home that it would be better to leave the gun where it is and put my own life at risk by confronting the dude and not have to worry about the legalities of firing my weapon.. this may be hard to answer im sorry

 

[ginzo]

The only qualified advice I can give you, I'm not a officer. No matter where you live, is dial 911 1st if possible and if you can't talk leave the line open before you do anything else. It most likely will be recorded and will be a timeline of what has happened.

Anything other than this is just what I have in my mind (plan) and unproven at this point. Hopefully never proven.

so I want to hear an answer from the retired police officer in this thread cause I found your reply to be more straight forward and sincere... Im a new gun owner.. New to pistols ive been a hunter since I was 14.. I practice safe gun control and safe practices... so heres my question.. its 3am im in my home asleep and my family asleep aswell.. We hear a bang or something.. My wife wakes me before owning a pistol I would walk out and look for said noise... Now im going to be quiet and grab my pistol.. I walk out and find said intruder... 1. do I shoot 1st and answer ?s to police later... 2. do I yell and say something to the intruder to get his attention to scare him away and then call police... and if I were to shoot is it in my best interest to shoot to kill or harm the intruder.. I was told that in a s/d situation that I should intend to kill the intruder and that Id better shoot him in the chest and not running away and also that he should still be in the home.. Im asking cause these are things I have looked for on the internet and cannot get clarity from.. and the people who tell me the things ive mentioned before are not professional business lawyers or police by any means so its basically heresay... basically being a home owner with a family and a GUN OWNER. I almost feel that if I were to have an intruder break into my home that it would be better to leave the gun where it is and put my own life at risk by confronting the dude and not have to worry about the legalities of firing my weapon.. this may be hard to answer im sorry

 

[dondavis3]

I can't address your legal question ...

But I've put the Apex trigger kits in all of my M&P's.

 

[gboling]

States do have different laws but generally you must be in fear of your life or the life of a family member. The fear must be reasonable, not imagined. When the threat is past you generally may not shoot.

If you feel that you must shoot your intent should be to shoot to stop the threat. Generally, a shot to center mass is most likely to stop the perpetrator's actions. We were taught to employ the double tap, two shots in rapid succession, to center mass of each threat, evaluate and should the perpetrator not be dissuaded employ one shot to the head of each continuing threat.

 

[ginzo]

In Florida you can "stand in someone else's shoes" to stop an attack of grave bodily injury or death. But I think I would tend to still make the 911 call as I didn't sign on to be a police officer.

Example: You see a guy in Walmart parking lot beating the snot out of another guy with a bat, looks like he is gonna kill him if you/someone doesn't intervene. So you step in and do what you think is right and shoot the guy with the bat. Right?

Well after the fact maybe you find out that the guy getting beaten raped the bat guys wife/daughter. Now what? I don't think I'm putting myself in that position.

I tend to follow this thinking as gboling states.

States do have different laws but generally you must be in fear of your life or the life of a family member. The fear must be reasonable, not imagined. When the threat is past you generally may not shoot.

If you feel that you must shoot your intent should be to shoot to stop the threat. Generally, a shot to center mass is most likely to stop the perpetrator's actions. We were taught to employ the double tap, two shots in rapid succession, to center mass of each threat, evaluate and should the perpetrator not be dissuaded employ one shot to the head of each continuing threat.

 

[Bkreutz]

so I want to hear an answer from the retired police officer in this thread cause I found your reply to be more straight forward and sincere... Im a new gun owner.. New to pistols ive been a hunter since I was 14.. I practice safe gun control and safe practices... so heres my question.. its 3am im in my home asleep and my family asleep aswell.. We hear a bang or something.. My wife wakes me before owning a pistol I would walk out and look for said noise... Now im going to be quiet and grab my pistol.. I walk out and find said intruder... 1. do I shoot 1st and answer ?s to police later... 2. do I yell and say something to the intruder to get his attention to scare him away and then call police... and if I were to shoot is it in my best interest to shoot to kill or harm the intruder.. I was told that in a s/d situation that I should intend to kill the intruder and that Id better shoot him in the chest and not running away and also that he should still be in the home.. Im asking cause these are things I have looked for on the internet and cannot get clarity from.. and the people who tell me the things ive mentioned before are not professional business lawyers or police by any means so its basically heresay... basically being a home owner with a family and a GUN OWNER. I almost feel that if I were to have an intruder break into my home that it would be better to leave the gun where it is and put my own life at risk by confronting the dude and not have to worry about the legalities of firing my weapon.. this may be hard to answer im sorry

I would recommend getting some self defense training in person in your area. Asking for advice on an internet forum is not the way to train yourself for the situation you describe. Getting training locally from someone who does it as a business is the safest way to go. The laws are different in every state, this forum has members from many different states. You need to know what is legal in your state. Remember, when and if you have to pull the trigger, you are the one that is going to be responsible, not the people who expressed their opinions regardless of the good and helpful intentions.

 

[tat2dchad]

I would recommend getting some self defense training in person in your area. Asking for advice on an internet forum is not the way to train yourself for the situation you describe. Getting training locally from someone who does it as a business is the safest way to go. The laws are different in every state, this forum has members from many different states. You need to know what is legal in your state. Remember, when and if you have to pull the trigger, you are the one that is going to be responsible, not the people who expressed their opinions regardless of the good and helpful intentions.

Agree100% just thought id start with a basic conversation before i did..gives me more to ask about

 

[BennyS]

I put the complete apex carry kit and aluminium trigger in my 9 mm and the pull is 5 3/4 pounds, far from a hair trigger. I doubt in this age of law suits that apex would design a kit that would be considered in a law suit.

 

[wittmeba]

I mean no disrespect to any posters when I say the following: I only saw one law enforcement person in the previous post. Were any of the others attorneys? I dealt with lawyers for 27 years as a police officer. While some were good honest people, some were the most evil bunch of liars on God's green earth. They would use the most insignificant item or theory to confuse the jury or discredit the officer's or witness testimony. The only modification our department allowed was better sights and rubber grip sleeves and as I was retiring attached lights/lasers. The only pistol I have had a trigger job in was my M&P .45FS and that was done by the factory thereby alleviating any liability on me. Read Mas Ayoob's ideas on pistol mods. He has more experience in this area than the rest of us. And remember if God forbid you are ever in a shooting your firearm will be seized and examined by a law enforcement crime lab and possibly a lab hired by the attorney representing the person you shot. Think about that for a minute. Is your local law enforcement pro civilian carry? And the lab the lawyer hires will certainly be on the side of the lawyer.

I don't mean any disrespect either.

I think the OJ Simpson case is a good example. I personally don't believe OJ's lawyers really cared about the whether OJ really did it or not. They just had more "counter" replies than the offense could present.

I don't know that the lawyers lie, but they can sure bring up information to discredit a witness or reduce the value of facts related to a case.

If you ever need a defense attorney you may select them based on their success/failure rate and will be based on cases won and lost - not on what is right or wrong in the proceedings.

But I do feel defense lawyers could care less about right and wrong. That is not their scorecard. They want to win their case. There is no score of 5-4 or 27-13. The is only a winner and loser. If you aren't the winner, you are the loser.