troubleshooting problems with .38 special 148 grain HBWC

[chickenfried]

Tried out my first .38 reloads recently in a 14-3, with poor accuracy as a result. Using Berry's plated 148 grain HBWC, 3.8 grains of AA#5. Theories I'm rolling around in my head: less roll crimp, seating bullet further out, and/or higher powder charge.

Data for a lead 148 grain HBWC from Accurate Arms is 3.6-4.0 grains of AA#5. 3.8 grains felt like a mouse fart.

Here's what I was getting at 15 yards rested!

With this round seated flush

This round seated slightly higher than flush performed a little better. But still had a few keyholes.

 

[whelenshooter]

I've been using Rainier 148 gr. plated DEWC with 4.0 grains of WW231 with great success. I seat them with the highest point of the bullet flush with the end of the case, which puts the shoulders of the bullets slightly below the top of the case. Then I roll crimp slightly, which goes around the bullet shoulder. They look nice and work GREAT! Holes in the target are always perfectly round with very good groups. It is probably a bit heavier load than what most people think of for a wadcutter load, but I can't argue with the accuracy level out of my 5-inch Performance Center S&W 627.

 

[OKFC05]

Theories I'm rolling around in my head: less roll crimp, seating bullet further out, and/or higher powder charge.

Little to no crimp on the plated bullet (cut that plating and the accuracy is gone), better yet seat so bullet is just below crimp. Use a faster powder for light loads to assure unifority of burn. Measure bullet, slug bore and throats, measure for fit: bullet should be at least .001 over throats, throats larger than bore. Clean any accumulated lead and copper out of the bore.

 

[David Sinko]

I have never seen holes in a target that look like those! They look like comets streaking across the sky. I'm going to assume that you had the paper stapled flat across the backstop and it was not flapping in the breeze. If so, it appears to me that the bullet itself was cutting a round hole but the copper plating was beginning to separate and tear the paper. I once used plated bullets with brand new brass and applied too much crimp, which caused the sharp edges of the new brass to bite through the plating. It actually cut the plating and at 15 yards I'd get two perfectly round holes for every one shot fired. The base plating was actually cutting its own perfectly round "bullet" hole. Try using no crimp at all and see what happens. With so much bullet seated into the case and the low velocity, the crimp should be unimportant.

Dave Sinko

 

[Kirmdog]

From my experiance with my model 14 I have found that the 1/18 twist of S&W is a bit on the slow side for good accuracy with light loads and HBWC'er. I have had good accuracy with 3.0 of Bullseye and the Remington 148 gr. HBWC or I can go to as light as 2.3 gr. of Bullseye with my H&G 50 WC. The H&G 50 is considerably shorter that any HBWC and seems to respond to light loads better than the longer HBWC. The best shooting WC out of all my Smiths is the H&G 50.

Try going slightly higher with your powder charge and see what happens or go to DEWC'ers that are shorter and better suited to the S&W slow twist. IMHO your instability problems with the HBWC is from too low a velostiy. Even on the hole on target that looks round if I look close it seems that you have some tears going to the left and has all the earmarks of an unstable bullet. A lighter crimp or seating the bullet out farther will help with accuracy but you have to get rid of the bullets tipping first to get smaller groups and then work on tweeking the load with OAL and crimp.

I don't care for Colt revolvers but I know for a fact that they shoot the 148 gr. HBWC much better at low velocity with their 1/14 twist than S&W ever could with the 1/18 that they have. That's why lots of Bullseye shooters would pull the barrels off their S&W and put on a Python barrel, faster twist = better accuracy with low velocity target loads.

Kirmdog

 

[dave b]

Try a faster powder. Bullseye, AA2, 231,etc

 

[Jellybean]

Keyholing??? What keyholing? There is no keyholing on that target. You should use a heavier paper though to prevent that tearing. Or at least make it taught so it will cut cleaner.

 

[Bruce51]

Keyholing??? What keyholing? There is no keyholing on that target. You should use a heavier paper though to prevent that tearing. Or at least make it taught so it will cut cleaner.

Jellybean is correct. The holes are holes and the tears are tears. Back up that target or use heavier paper.

Bruce

 

[chickenfried]

In the back of my head was wondering if that really was keyholing because there's a definite round hole. The paper is pretty heavy, not flimsy. .My .45 semi-wadcutters make nice holes in this target.

 

[dave b]

I don't think there keyholing either. The group ain't exactly match grade though.

 

[Tony C.]

My guess is your powder is on the slow side, is there a lot of unburn powder left in front of the firing line? for .38 spl. target load with 148gr. HBWC bullets in a revolver, try 3.0gr. of bullseye or 3.3gr. of W231.

Another thing you may want to check is the throat and forcing cone diamensions of your revolver.

 

[pete950]

Try putting a piece of card board behind the target to support that thin paper.

Pete

 

[Kirmdog]

While the bullets are not turning completly sideways aka "keyholing" it sure looks like they are tipping which is a form of keyholing, they just didn't have enought distance to turn completly sideways.

As I noted before, if you look at the one hole on the bottom of the target it looks like there are tears going to the left. If there are tears to the left and no other tears on the right the bullet was "tipping", it just didn't tip as far as the otherr shots to make a big tear in the paper. While all WC'ers froma 38 tip to some extent especially at 50 yards your's are tipping at 45 feet which isn't right. More velocity is needed to stop the "tipping" or "keyholing".

 

[chickenfried]

Thanks for the suggestions everyone. I'll try bumping it up to 4.0 grains and ease off the crimp a little.

 

[Jellybean]

Just a suggestion, you might try different powders. Just because a powder manufacturer lists a load in their manual doesn't mean it's an accurate one, it's just a guideline for being "safe". Your seating depth and crimp don't look like they would give a problem with accuracy, as long as they all look like the one you pictured. You can also load the round with incremental changes in the powder charge. Sometimes a small change in powder can make a large difference in accuracy, and it might be with increasing or decreasing the powder charge. Starting at the minimum powder charge and working your way up is not only for safety when you are looking for an accurate load, it can make a world of difference.

 

[chickenfried]

Forgot to update the thread. Turns out the 14-3 just doesn't like the load for some reason. Performs well out of my 27-2 and 586.

 

[ISOM]

KEY-HOLEING HBWC

I use 231 in my 686.
When I loaded 4.0 grains with HBWC they key-holed.
I dropped the load to 3.0 grains and it did not and was accurate.
Have your DROPPED the load?

 

[yaktamer]

Note that Berry's recommends using low to midrange jacketed data, rather than lead (I understand that others e.g., Ranier, recommend lead dated for plated). You might want to adjust accordingly.

 

[BE Mike]

.38 Spl wadcutter bullets tip. Fugedabodit! Usually it doesn't mean that there is anything wrong.

 

[socal s&w]

I had the same issue with the Berry plated 148gr HBWC's in a 686 using 2.8 gr of Bullseye.

I really checked the bullets out and if you look at the hollowed base there is always something stuck in there, mostly copper plating debris or maybe lead. Either way, i starting using Hornady 148gr LHBWC's with the exact same load and bingo, all in the black at 25 yards with zero tumbling/tipping.

Perhaps the base of the bullet is not expanding enough at the low velocities and the bullets are slightly under sized. Or perhaps the debris is throwing the bullet off. That's my guess.