TWO PIECE BARREL?

The two piece barrel was developed by Herb Belin, S&W Handgun Product Manager for the X-Frame 500 to add strength for the big new cartridge it fires. A conventional S&W barrel is supported only at the barrel/frame interface with a crush fit while the two piece is supported at both ends. Since the interface at the forcing cone is not stressed it is also stronger there. The better accuracy is an additional benefit.

I am not an internet engineer, or even a regular one. I do, however, assume that S&W and Herb Belin know more about designing guns than I so I take their word for the benefits of the two piece barrel. I guess one could argue about the benefits on a gun designed for a lesser cartridge than the Model 500 but am unsure. Therefore, I am not going to embarrass myself with any conjecture.

Bob
 
As noted, the S&W flange-barrels are non-user-adjustable, and done quite differently from the old DWs.


While the idea & approach used may have some merit in the .500, in the smaller calibers I'd argue in favor of it being a money issue more than any attempt at a product improvement, despite the issues related to production & inventory of two parts where previously the barrel was one part.

Advantages to the maker are that (like several other areas of current production such as MIM parts) the flange-barrels reduce assembly time, which reduces human paid-salary time.
The shroud can be cast, reducing machine maintenance (cutter heads) and related machining costs. The barrel "tube" is quicker to machine on a CNC center (being essentially a simple tube with a flange) than the more complicated shapes in a standard barrel.

Because the barrel shroud indexes itself into the frame, there is a slight advantage to the buyer in that it's pretty much not possible to turn out a canted front sight.

Otherwise, the flange-barrel involves some very distinct disadvantages to the buyer in that, should certain types of barrel work be needed or desired, your local gunsmith can no longer do it.
The flange-barrels are installed, tightened to a gauged depth, and/or removed the same way, by a wrench that fits inside the bore. S&W won't make that wrench available to anybody outside the company. That means if your flange-barrel has problems that need correcting, chances are your local guy can't do it. He can't do any custom work on a gun that requires removing the barrel, such as shortening it, or setting it back a turn or two to help correct a long barrel/cylinder gap. And so on.
Granted, the majority of flange-barrel buyers may never need work done on them, but....

As far as accuracy goes, I shot a flange-barreled 67 last year and found it was no better than a conventional barrel. Others may differ, but that was my experience.

Another note to consider about the S&W approach vs the DW approach is that while the DW action never impressed me I've never heard of a DW barrel breaking off.

S&W has dropped the flange-barrel in the 67 & (I believe) the 64, and that has to be for compelling reasons. They weren't working out, either as far as customer reception, performance, or durability goes, to a point where S&W wanted to keep them going.

Comparing the S&W flange-barrels to the DW barrels involves only a similarity in principle, with quite different executions.


Denis
 
Comparing the S&W flange-barrels to the DW barrels involves only a similarity in principle, with quite different executions.

Denis
Denis,
That is not true of all of the S&W multi-piece barrel designs. Certainly it applies to the 500s, 460s and snubbies and all of the other 2 piece designs. I agree that the driving force here was probably the reduction of the hand fitting time.

However, S&W also employed 3 and 4 piece designs (virtually identical to DW). My two early 327s are 3 pieces. There is a tube, shroud and an end nut for the muzzle side.
barrel%20nut.jpg


I could easily disassemble it with a spanner wrench. The factory may have been toying with the idea of selling barrel assemblies early on. I missed SHOT this year so it has been a while since I looked at a current production 327 to see if the design has changed or not.

The 4 piece design added a false muzzle cap pressed in place to hide the barrel nut. I can not recall which models had this configuration off the top of my head.
 
You do remind me of a TR .45 ACP revolver I tried a while back that had a removable barrel nut, my apologies for overlooking it.

Main topic of discussion here has been the flangebarrels, though. :)

The only new Smith I looked at in passing during SHOT this year was that polymer .38 out of curiosity. In recent years my interest in the directions they're taking with the more esoteric revolver variations has dwindled greatly.

Denis
 
This is not an issue of statics or dynamics (at least not conventional) but one of vibrations. Tensioning the barrel will indeed reduce the vibration response but so will increasing the wall thickness of the barrel. On the one hand you have a relatively thin-walled barrel that is tensioned and on the other a relatively thick-walled barrel that is not tensioned. Which offers the most favorable vibration response for a particular configuration is not immediately obvious. My guess is that with the two-piece barrels S&W was not after enhanced accuracy but reduced manufacturing cost. Whether they also enhanced accuracy by doing so, is beyond my present day ability to calculate.
 
WOW. I have seen nerves get touched on unenlightened folks in the past, but I have never seen anyone blow up like you have. Where does all this anger come from?

I am glad that your brief reading of my posts during your short tenure on this fine forum has told you everything about my conceptions and understandings of stimuli. Or do you always resort to insults as your first tactic when you are on the wrong end of a intellectual conversation?

The quote "your beloved Volquartsen barrel company" is another stretch of your imagination. How have you ascertained how I feel about Volquartsen?

You actually went looking for a single word from Volquartsen that you could quote out of context in order to prove your point? You must have lots more free time on your hands than most working people.

Just because a barrel assembly contains a sleeve among it's parts list does not make it a sleeved barrel. Sleeved and tensioned barrels are different concepts.

Other forum members have already posted trying to explain to you the differences between traditional sleeved barrels and traditional tensioned barrels. We will see if you choose to open your eyes and learn a new fact or just remain stubborn and in the dark.

Well Pal, let's start with your first snipe at my initial post. You made the comment:
"The problem with your analysis is that it has nothing to do with S&W. S&W does not use sleeved barrels, they use tensioned barrels.
Precision rifle makers like Volquartsen and others have proven the performance advantages of tensioned barrels time and again over the last several decades." Unquestionably this indicates that you do not understand or have any conception of what transpires in a barrel during ignition and throughout the complete process during the bullet's travel until it exits ie: stimuli. The theoretical effects are the same be it a hand gun barrel or rifle barrel. So, my analysis did have something to do with S&W barrels and in fact all barrels. In your second sentence you choose to throw out the manufacture name Volquartsen. Was that because of your unfamiliarity with any of the manufacturers that actually chamber barrels for something other than .22 rim fire? Clearly it was the only manufacture that you could mention to attempt to support your opinion on tensioning attachments and accuracy because as I previously stated many of the precision barrel makers have experimented with sleeved and/or tensioned barrels and found the concept to produce unacceptable accuracy results and accomplished nothing other than weight reduction. You also said "Volquartsen and others have proven the performance advantages of tensioned barrels time and again over the last several decades." Just exactly who are those "others?"

Concerning your comment that: "do you always resort to insults as your first tactic when you are on the wrong end of a intellectual conversation?" Let me remind you that you were the first to insult my post. It was not the other way around. If you don't like the response after posting your feeble little comments may be you should limit your commentary on the posts made by others. As it relates to being on the "wrong end of a intellectual conversation," I would submit that I have not seen anything intellectual posted by you in this thread.

In conclusion, it boggles the mind that you can not comprehend the fact that if a barrel is comprised of (1) a tube and (2) a sleeve, it is a sleeved barrel. It does not matter if the connections and attachments are made by epoxy, friction fit or bubble gum as it is still and always will be considered a sleeved barrel. Tensioning is the attachment method to secure part (1) and part (2) together. You may want to read the description of manufacturing and barrel assembly posted in the Volquartsen web site. Remember, the manufacturer that you used in an effort to support your initial pragmatic statements.

Hey, there is no anger here Pal. I truly hope that you enjoy your sleeved/tensioned barrel gun. And by the way, have a wonderful day!
 
Well Pal, let's start with your first snipe at my initial post. You made the comment:
"The problem with your analysis is that it has nothing to do with S&W. S&W does not use sleeved barrels, they use tensioned barrels.
Precision rifle makers like Volquartsen and others have proven the performance advantages of tensioned barrels time and again over the last several decades." Unquestionably this indicates that you do not understand or have any conception of what transpires in a barrel during ignition and throughout the complete process during the bullet's travel until it exits ie: stimuli. The theoretical effects are the same be it a hand gun barrel or rifle barrel. So, my analysis did have something to do with S&W barrels and in fact all barrels. In your second sentence you choose to throw out the manufacture name Volquartsen. Was that because of your unfamiliarity with any of the manufacturers that actually chamber barrels for something other than .22 rim fire? Clearly it was the only manufacture that you could mention to attempt to support your opinion on tensioning attachments and accuracy because as I previously stated many of the precision barrel makers have experimented with sleeved and/or tensioned barrels and found the concept to produce unacceptable accuracy results and accomplished nothing other than weight reduction. You also said "Volquartsen and others have proven the performance advantages of tensioned barrels time and again over the last several decades." Just exactly who are those "others?"

Concerning your comment that: "do you always resort to insults as your first tactic when you are on the wrong end of a intellectual conversation?" Let me remind you that you were the first to insult my post. It was not the other way around. If you don't like the response after posting your feeble little comments may be you should limit your commentary on the posts made by others. As it relates to being on the "wrong end of a intellectual conversation," I would submit that I have not seen anything intellectual posted by you in this thread.

In conclusion, it boggles the mind that you can not comprehend the fact that if a barrel is comprised of (1) a tube and (2) a sleeve, it is a sleeved barrel. It does not matter if the connections and attachments are made by epoxy, friction fit or bubble gum as it is still and always will be considered a sleeved barrel. Tensioning is the attachment method to secure part (1) and part (2) together. You may want to read the description of manufacturing and barrel assembly posted in the Volquartsen web site. Remember, the manufacturer that you used in an effort to support your initial pragmatic statements.

Hey, there is no anger here Pal. I truly hope that you enjoy your sleeved/tensioned barrel gun. And by the way, have a wonderful day!
When did I become your Pal? Your posts certainly make me chuckle.

Let's clear the air. I apologize if you took my 2nd post to this thread as a personal insult or attack toward you. It was not meant to come off that way and reading it I still do not see anywhere that it was an insult. Let me rephrase that first post. You are WRONG. There, now it clearly is a statement and not an insult.

You want some others that have used tensioned barrels with great success over the decades, OK. There is Dan Wesson, Clark and Cylinder & Slide just to give you three more. How many manufacturers successfully use tensioned barrels is not the point. The point is that you still do not want to learn or accept the difference between a sleeved barrel and a tensioned barrel.

But then you appear to not understand the difference between an insult and a statement/comment either. My statement "The problem with your analysis is that it has nothing to do with S&W" addresses your post, not you the person. There is nothing sarcastic or contemptuous toward you in that comment.

On the other hand this is an insult "Sounds as if one great big bill of goods has been sold to some misinformed believers" as you are attacking the person(s) by calling them "misinformed believers" instead of presenting helpful information on the subject at hand.

Here is another insult "Clearly you shouldn't dis another poster's opinion when you obviously have no conception or understanding of how certain internal and external stimuli impact the yield of something" as you are attacking a persons knowledge and education instead of discussing facts. BTW, what kind of person uses the term "dis" instead of real words?

Here is another example of an insult "Unquestionably this indicates that you do not understand or have any conception of what transpires in a barrel during ignition and throughout the complete process during the bullet's travel until it exitsm." Can you see the difference between comments and insults yet? BTW, where have you come to learn about my education or expertise in the sciences of internal ballistics or Physics? However, that is not even a relevant point, because we have never been talking about sleeved vs. non-sleeved rifle barrels. We have been talking about multi-piece barrel assemblies in S&W handguns.

The tactic that you are using of not answering the question asked and making a comment along a different line is referred to as "Bump and Run." This is a long time favorite of politicians in the Democrat party just watch any National Sunday morning news show and you will easily recognize it's use over and over. The obvious goal is to change the subject.

Now you state "In conclusion, it boggles the mind that you can not comprehend the fact that if a barrel is comprised of (1) a tube and (2) a sleeve, it is a sleeved barrel." By your logic, would this not be properly called a tubed barrel? After all the tube, not the sleeve is listed as the #1 part.

Now please go and re-read your posts. Perhaps you will recognize that your writing style comes off as full of sarcasm at the least and anger, vitriol or contempt at the worst. Instead your posts should be providing helpful information on the topic. Perhaps this is a misconception on my part and you just do not know how to verbalize your thoughts in a friendly manor? I do not know much about your writing skills beyond the examples posted here.
 
S&W has dropped the flange-barrel in the 67 & (I believe) the 64, and that has to be for compelling reasons. They weren't working out, either as far as customer reception, performance, or durability goes, to a point where S&W wanted to keep them going. Denis

The most recent factory new 64s and 67s I have received from the distributor still had the two-piece barrels. The new Models 66 and 69 introduced this year also have two-piece barrels, albeit a slightly different design.
 
The barrel in the scandium and titanium guns is a barrel sleeve. It's not anywhere near as accurate as the 36's and 37's. I bought one of the new performance center guns with the two piece barrel. If you stick your finger on the muzzle of them it's like the rifling almost protrudes and will cut your finger. I bought one of the new 29's several years ago in 4 inch. The crown was not right. You could also run your finger over the barrel and feel the rough cuts. I don't like them. Not a great pic but you can see the rough lands.
JR

157789217.jpg
 
S&W Model 60-18 Barrel replacement.

I have a 357 S&W Model 60-18 with a Bulge in the barrel. I sent it to SW and they returned it unrepaired with no explanation on the receipt. I received a call informing me that they made the barrels for a very short time and are discontinued.... OK now what? Does anybody have a source for these barrels or know a smith that will tackle this issue?
George Spaulding [email protected]
 
Some are made by Lothar-Walther near Atlanta Ga. Actually three piece

barrels..1-inner liner.. 2-barrel shroud... 3-threaded nut/tensioner...

l doubt they are cheaper tho.. Lothar-Walther makes lots of barrels for

many militaries of different countries too. Same 3 piece setup... Look

at an Abrams tank or a Paladin self propelled Howitzer..

Liner/shroud/brake... SAME setup as my 629 Magnum Hunter!!

Abrams and Paladins AIN'T cheap. My Magnum Hunter wasn't either:-(
 
This thread is 25 days short of being 9 years old. A lot of water under the bridge since then. Anyway, I like mine and the Dan Wesson I owned 30 years ago was quite accurate.
 

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I own one two piece barrel. After reading this thread I still don't know what it is.

Model 65-8
 

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Somebody dust these two guys off and get them back out here.Im grabbing a beer.

It's fun watching a couple of gumbies wave their canes at each other till they spit out their false teeth.
 
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I don't own toy plastic guns, I don't own any two piece barrels. I have k38's and n frames no new fang dangle revolvers.

I don't want a pickle just get off my s&w nickel.
 
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