U-Boat Commander

[steveno]

The other book purchase from the gun show last weekend was “U-boat Commander” by Peter Cremer. He was one of only three U-boat commanders to see the war from start to finish. I don’t know of a way to compare our navy boats to the time frame to U-boats but the U-boats were an ugly way to fight a war and survivability was very bad odds. It started out good for the U-boat but by the end of the war as the allies had just about wiped them out. Another pretty good read

 

[S-W4EVER]

IIRC, no other branch of any military suffered as many losses as the German Submarine Service (75%?), most from the industrial region in Germany.

 

[brucev]

It took the US a bit of time to get up to speed. Failed to learn the lessons the British had so dearly paid for, but the lessons got learned. Hunter/Killer was a great move in the right direction. Capture of Enigma machine, etc. was a game changer. Hedge Hog was a great weapon for killing U-boats. Biggest mistake Hitler made was starting the war to soon. There never were enough U-boats. A year would have allowed enough boats to throttle England to death w/ lack of fuel and food. Churchill well understood that winning the battle of the Atlantic was the critical issue. Had the U-boats prevailed, England would have fallen before the US could have done anything about it. Our boats were excellent. Proof is seen in the way the Japanese navy and merchant fleet was hammered almost out of existence by US submarines. JMHO. Sincerely. bruce.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

90% of all Kriegsmarine personnel losses were in the U-Boat service! However the U-Boats were only ever 10% of their Navy!

in the 1980's I picked up "The Boat" (Das Boot) but I couldn't comprehend the terminology and context. So I went to the Public Library and got 1) an Elementary School book (Golden Book of Submarines) 2) a High School book (Ballantine Book on Submarine Warfare) and 3) "Run Silent, Run Deep". I read these books in that order, then went back and restarted the English version of "The Boat". The author conveyed the feeling of being there, the thrills and the terrors!

If I ever see a copy of "U-Boat Commander" I'll be sure to add it to my Submarine library!

Ivan

ETA: My first daughter-in-law is from Germany, I offered to get her a copy of "The Boat" in English or "Das Boot" in German so we could read it together and discus her viewpoint. It had been banned in Germany during her High School days, she said she was positive she didn't want the nightmares of reading it. (I didn't think it was all that bad, but I'm a guy, so what do I know. And besides those aren't my Uncles and cousins dying!)

 

[kmyers]

Das Boot is a favorite of mine. I speak German so I can view and listen without reading. I agree about the losses. 40,000 went to sea 30,000 died. Werner Hartenstein was one that you read about and make the comment that the majority of Germans were men fighting for their country and don't discount them for being the enemy, you judge on their action. His during the Laconia incident were definitely that of an honorable enemy. When he realized the numbers, nearly 3000, in the water he sent out an uncoded message asking for assistance in saving the survivors.

 

[wnwitzell]

There are a number of books available by Uboat survivors. Including a few photo books. Many are still available. For a great overview of the Uboat war see Clay Blair's 2 volume set called Hitler's Uboat War. Send me a PM if you would like a partial list.

 

[kmyers]

There are a number of books available by Uboat survivors. Including a few photo books. Many are still available. For a great overview of the Uboat war see Clay Blair's 2 volume set called Hitler's Uboat War. Send me a PM if you would like a partial list.

It is an excellent reference as is Silent Victory about the US submarine force in WWII.

 

[HOUSTON RICK]

The curse of the US Submarines in early World War II were the torpedoes. The Naval ordinance Department let many boat and crew perish before suspending their self adoration long enough to listen to "incompetent whining Captains" to test the torpedoes. The first test showed what sub Captains had said for many months, in a direct hit, a US torpedo firing mechanism collapsed before firing.

The U Boat crews came the closest to bringing victory for Nazi Germany. Another very good read on U-Boats is "Iron Coffins" by Herbert A.Werner.

 

[daglockman]

I can remember touring the U505 at the museum of nature and science in Chicago years ago with my daughter. There is no way I would have gone under the ocean in that beer can. I think they told us that the men had to go on at least 90 day tours at a time, and the vessel was 1/3 packed full of rations, making it quite a bit smaller even. No way..... I also remember some of the pictures they had of the crews before departing, their faces said that they were very unhappy about it also.

 

[Absalom]

U-Boot warfare in WW II is interesting also because it led to a major failure on the part of each of the three main powers involved, first Germany and then the United States and Britain. The latter two led to many thousands of unnecessarily sacrificed lives.

The German failure has already be mentioned: The Kriegsmarine’s obsession with big surface ships (which turned out to be irrelevant) and the neglect of the U-boats in the early years when they would have likely made a decisive difference.

The American failure came in the first six months of 1942 with Operation Paukenschlag (Drumbeat), the worst defeat ever inflicted on the US Navy, much more costly and much more dangerous than Pearl Harbor. It just didn’t quite feel like it because it stretched out over several months, and the massacre of American shipping on the East Coast happened piecemeal.

The British failure may have been the most decisive one. Arthur “Bomber” Harris had such a grip on Churchill with his strategic bombing campaign, and fought the diversion of every airplane to Coastal Command so effectively, that the Allied anti-submarine effort was seriously hampered. Had a maximum effort been undertaken in converting four-engine bombers with long-range tanks in order to close the “Atlantic Gap”, the turning point that finally came in “Black May” 1943 would have happened 12 to 18 months earlier, saving countless lives.

Including the lives of RAF flight crews who died “exporting explosives to Germany”. RAF Bomber Command had by far the highest casualty rate of any Allied service, quite out of proportion to the effect.

 

[yaktamer]

Who?
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bodVVtqmbZE[/ame]

 

[Dave_n]

The last UBoat commander from the first "Happy Days" off the US coast, died recently at 106 if memory serves me correctly. The spelling might be wrong "Hartdigen" but he actually entered NY Harbor to sink one ship around the beginning of January 1942. He survived because he was "grounded" in early 1944 or thereabouts and served on Donetz' staff until the end of the war. My sister was responsible for bringing a Mk IX UBoat as a static exhibit to Liverpool, UK late in the 1990s. Dave_n

 

[kmyers]

The two best scenes, MHO, from Das Boot.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISD1hJz53L8[/ame]

The convoy attack.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIQETV30_u8[/ame]

Gibraltar when the submarine gets bombed and the commander steers the U-Boat to shallower waters for repairs and to survive.

 

[Tom S.]

My electronics teacher in high school served on a U-boat. He wasn't overly enthusiastic about the experience.

 

[Ziggy2525]

Was at Fort Ord for part of 73 and 74. Apparently some third world countries were still using WWII subs, so the Navy had a working WWII diesel/battery sub on the West Coast they used for tracking training. They brought it to Monterrey for a military open house.

Went on the sub tour. Remember thinking I was glad I was in the Army.

 

[LVSteve]

The British failure may have been the most decisive one. Arthur “Bomber” Harris had such a grip on Churchill with his strategic bombing campaign, and fought the diversion of every airplane to Coastal Command so effectively, that the Allied anti-submarine effort was seriously hampered. Had a maximum effort been undertaken in converting four-engine bombers with long-range tanks in order to close the “Atlantic Gap”, the turning point that finally came in “Black May” 1943 would have happened 12 to 18 months earlier, saving countless lives.

Including the lives of RAF flight crews who died “exporting explosives to Germany”. RAF Bomber Command had by far the highest casualty rate of any Allied service, quite out of proportion to the effect.

Fortunately for Britain, Goering hated Doenitz and wouldn't let him have spares for the recce Fw 200 Condors that could search for the convoys.

Doenitz didn't do his sub commanders any favors by insisting that they report in all the time. Even before Enigma the British could DF their radios. Almost every warship had an HF/DF (Huff-Duff) antenna and specialized signals group who were almost not part of the ship's crew. Submarines depend on stealth. Bleating away on a radio every day isn't stealthy.

 

[brucev]

"Iron Coffins" by Herbert A.Werner. Absolutely excellent. Sincerely. bruce.

 

[292]

Interesting stuff. Coincidentally, last night I attended Elizabeth City’s historic ghost walk. This year’s theme is Operation Zebra. The top secret mission to train Soviet pilots to fly Uboat hunting sea planes. The training happened right here in Elizabeth City.

 

[JackM]

The man who would have been my Uncle Jack served as an officer in the Merchant Marine during WWII. One of his ships was sunk just outside New York Harbor--he could see the NYC skyline while he was waiting to be picked up. Part of the problem was that the US never enforced a blackout along the east coast. The U-Boat captains had an easy time lining up on the merchantmen so perfectly silhouetted. My uncle survived the war, but not the tuberculosis he contracted during it. He died at Saranac, NY, the year before I was born.

 

[meaneyedcatz]

The USS Pampanino is a restored and floating wwII sub in San Francisco. I was so glad I was able to get in and tour it. It brought to life/realism what I have read in my collection of submarine books.
If in San Francisco you have to go.