Ukraine Gets $54.2 Billion - From the EU
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Glad they are getting help.....
... while we argue at each other. One thing is sure. Without support they are sunk.
... while we argue at each other. One thing is sure. Without support they are sunk.
OP
As were we until Franklin got us access to the French fleet under DeGrasse and Rochambeau's army that marched with Washington, the Expédition Particulière.
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It's very disappointing to me that so many Americans today have forgotten the lessons of the 1938 Munich Agreement, and at the same time abandoned President John F. Kennedy's pledge, delivered in his 1961 inaugural address:
"Let the word go forth from this time and place, to friend and foe alike, that the torch has been passed to a new generation of Americans--born in this century, tempered by war, disciplined by a hard and bitter peace, proud of our ancient heritage--and unwilling to witness or permit the slow undoing of those human rights to which this nation has always been committed, and to which we are committed today at home and around the world.
Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty."
Slava Ukraini!
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"Let the word go forth from this time and place, to friend and foe alike, that the torch has been passed to a new generation of Americans--born in this century, tempered by war, disciplined by a hard and bitter peace, proud of our ancient heritage--and unwilling to witness or permit the slow undoing of those human rights to which this nation has always been committed, and to which we are committed today at home and around the world.
Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty."
Slava Ukraini!
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Yaworski
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Nice pledge JFK but where were the Americans in 1968 when the Soviets rolled into Czechoslovakia? Another unanswered question is "who is going to pay for this?"
We spent over $8 trillion in Afghanistan and look where that got us. The only beneficiaries were the contractors and the Taliban.
We spent over a $1 trillion in today's money in Vietnam and look where that got us.
We spent over $8 trillion in Afghanistan and look where that got us. The only beneficiaries were the contractors and the Taliban.
We spent over a $1 trillion in today's money in Vietnam and look where that got us.
cmj8591
Member
But here's the rub. When are they going to tell us what the end game is? Do we just keep dumping money on it? And how do we know where all those precious American tax dollars are being used? Because even though the media whistles past the grave yard, it seems like not every dollar we are sending over there is making it into the fight. I think it might be time that someone answers some of these questions.
Sometimes, aid actually works…….
1948 Marshall Plan For European Recovery = $173B-$183B (2023$, sources vary)
US Post-War Aid to Japan = ~ $18.6B (2023$, again, sources vary)
From the Marshall Plan: "Our policy is directed not against any country or doctrine but against hunger, poverty, desperation and chaos. Its purpose should be the revival of a working economy in the world so as to permit the emergence of political and social conditions in which free institutions can exist."
That statement represents our national character. Yet it also advanced our economic interests. America's Post-War assistance to Europe amounts to far less than the more than $250 billion in goods that the United States now annually exports to those countries. Thats just Europe. Our aid also buys and keeps our "friends" close to us. The rub, as pointed out above, is the efficient and effective use of all that money.
We need take the lesson learned from Munich,1938………
1948 Marshall Plan For European Recovery = $173B-$183B (2023$, sources vary)
US Post-War Aid to Japan = ~ $18.6B (2023$, again, sources vary)
From the Marshall Plan: "Our policy is directed not against any country or doctrine but against hunger, poverty, desperation and chaos. Its purpose should be the revival of a working economy in the world so as to permit the emergence of political and social conditions in which free institutions can exist."
That statement represents our national character. Yet it also advanced our economic interests. America's Post-War assistance to Europe amounts to far less than the more than $250 billion in goods that the United States now annually exports to those countries. Thats just Europe. Our aid also buys and keeps our "friends" close to us. The rub, as pointed out above, is the efficient and effective use of all that money.
We need take the lesson learned from Munich,1938………
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Good, it's their backyard. We need to take care of ours.
UncleEd
Member
The world is the U.S.'s backyard. Price for being the
world's biggest super power and leading democracy.
Ultimately, the U.S. is the main target of anti-democratic
regimes around the world.
If you look at their "external debt vs GDP " on Debtclock.org, most of Europe is already 200-300% underwater. Basically they said: "Put it all on our 'Mastercard'." Joe
That JFK quote was practically our daily Pledge of Allegiance when I was in 10th Special Forces Group way back when.
taz666
Member
Quite right UncleEd. They stand and resist knowing WE have their back.
taz666
Member
I say it past time to start distributing the seized Russian money to the Ukrainian people.
There's a difference between getting involved with another country's internal politics and assisting another country repelling a military invasion.
We went into Iraq and Afghanistan on pretexts that were not based on fact and quite frankly went there on behalf of a Congress bought and paid for by rich folks and corporations who saw those wars as opportunities to make money.
Even then we could have accomplished something. When we first went into Afghanistan we enjoyed popular support in Afghanistan. However after a couple years of third string diplomats, as well as put troops generally looking down on them and referring to them as "a bunch of rag heads" we pretty well lost the battle on the good will front.
In Iraq we leveled the place, then made a half hearted token effort to rebuild and then left.
Compare that to the assistance we provided to both Japan and Germany after WWII. If we'd have just leveled them and went home, both would have been hot beds of instability, terrorism and on going conflict as well.
Ironically what required us to stay there and rebuild those countries was the fact that if we left the Soviets would have filled the vacuum and converted them to communist countries, like they did in East Germany.
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Vietnam was a conflict politicians were never going to let the military win, out of fears of expanding the conflict with China and Russia. We never should have gone in at all knowing we were not going in it to win it.
Similarly we meddled in South American affairs for decades trying to prop up democracies is cultures with an alcalde system where the average person really preferred a dictator, even a corrupt one, as long as things got done and they didn't have to mess with it. You can't have a democracy without a democratic tradition and that takes at least a generation to create.
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But none of that reflects the reality in Ukraine where Russia first invaded and took the Crimea in 2014 (while Obama just sat on his hands and "went high" when Putin "went low").
Trump was even worse as it's clear he was in Putin's pocket with the former KGB chief no doubt having loads of demanding evidence and video of the morally bankrupt Trump in all sorts of compromising situations.
And yet he still has followers who are firmly in the camp that we should not intervene and oppose the naked aggression by Russia in its invasion of Ukraine.
Those folks seem to forget how poorly that worked for democratic nations in the lead up to WWII when Hitler just kept taking one region or country after another.
Putin's agenda is no different. He has the end goal of reforming the entire former Soviet Union and Warsaw pact. With each success he'll become harder to stop.
A big reason we got here isn't expenditures, but rather massive tax cuts to the really rich and corporations.
cmj8591
Member
Wait! Can we talk about politics now?
If anone has proof of someone being compromised, my inbox has plenty of room. Send the videos and conversations.
Well...I think it's pretty clear, at least to me, that the "end game" in Ukraine is to drive Putin's army out, and restore the Ukrainian borders to what they were, either before this current invasion, or before the annexation of Crimea in 2014. I haven't heard any government official say otherwise...have you? We are simply assisting an allied nation as they defend against an invasion.
Your innuendo notwithstanding, we do know where our tax dollars are being spent. A quick Google search will answer your questions...see the links below.
One man's "dumping money" is another man's "investing in defense". Look at a map of that region...how would you like to be living in Riga, Latvia (a NATO member) and wondering whether the alliance, and especially the USA, will come to your aid if you are attacked by Russia? If Ukraine loses this war because America abandoned her, what effect do you think that will have on Putin's decision-making? If we are seen as unwilling to stand up for the sovereignty of smaller nations, what do you think the Chinese, the Iranians, and the North Koreans will take away from that?
The strongest American supporters of Ukraine should be those who do not want to see our troops involved in another shooting war.
How much money has the US given Ukraine?
How much aid the U.S. has sent to Ukraine, in 6 charts | PBS NewsHour
In Ukraine, American taxpayers funding more than just the military | 60 Minutes - CBS News
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