“ULTRA-RARE” UMC 45 SCHOFIELD BULLET MOLD!!

[BMur]

I’ve been unbelievably lucky lately finding 45 Schofield relics. I just won this mold at auction. Can’t wait to dissect it.

I know from period catalogs that UMC (Union Metallic Cartridge Co) manufactured and sold reloading kits for the 45 Schofield but I have never seen one. I have only seen a few parts photo’d. Never have I seen a bullet mold of this early design in 45 S&W. Very exciting piece of history!

It’s an amazing find and notice from the auction photos that the bullet appears to mimic the Arsenal double lube grove inside lubricated bullet. However, it is a heeled bullet, not hollow based like the Arsenal round. I can’t wait to measure the cavity.

I’ll post more detailed photos when it arrives.


Murph

 

[BMur]

Military loading

When we follow existing UMC catalogs photo’d from
1884 and 1889 what I have noticed is their focus is on “MILITARY” loadings and “MILITARY” listed reloading implements that would serve to chamber and reload for “MILITARY SURPLUS Schofield revolvers”. Notice in the last photo UMC 45 S&W was an inside lubricated bullet that also matches the Military design early on.

Very interesting to me personally since other known molds and tools often focus on Commercial outside lubricated bullets of .450 diameter.

That’s why I really need to hold this rare puppy in my hand and dissect it.

Questions:

Is it a .450 diameter bullet like other molds I have inspected?

Or is it slightly oversized .452 to match the altered 45 Military dual purpose Frankford Arsenal round?

How much does the bullet weigh as cast?

How does this bullet compare to dug up Military 45 hollow based bullets I have?

How does this bullet compare to later Ideal bullets of similar design?

So this mold will answer a lot of historical questions and fill some voids for sure!

Murph

 

[DWalt]

"History of Modern U.S. Military Small Arms Ammunition" (Hackley, Wooden, and Scranton) is opaque on the Schofield .45 bullet. The order for using a reloadable round was issued on July 3, 1882. A drawing is included, saying the bullet diameter was 0.450" with a bullet weight of 230 grains. It also states that all issued ammunition was made at Frankford Arsenal. However, it later mentions an arsenal drawing dated December 4, 1896 which shows a bullet diameter of 0.458". I also have a drawing from Pittman's notes which shows a bullet diameter of 0.456" also with a weight of 230 grains.

I suggest you go on the International Ammunition Association site and post your question there in their forum. That is the most likely place to get an authoritative answer.

 

[BMur]

Physical evidence

Great post and thank you.

It’s a wonderful historical reference but often drawings or blueprints differ from the final product. I’ve also found that early mechanical drawings are often ultimately evaluated poorly since they are hand drawn by engineers that used a different method of drawing numbers and letters. Number 9 that looks like a 3. Number 4 that looks like a 9. A 6 that looks like a 5, etc. They were taught to draw numbers backwards from today’s teachings. Very odd looking that ultimately results in an argumentative stance.

I’ve even seen where county records that have been transferred from original hand drawn plots by early engineers are uploaded onto a computer program in error by reading original hand drawn numbers incorrectly. Add human arrogance to the mix and now you have a huge mess.

This bullet mold in my opinion is not contestable. It’s rock solid. What it casts is a clear and accurate image from the past. It’s UMC’s concept of the 45 S&W that dates to the period of use. I honestly don’t see it getting any better than that.

If it mic’s at .450 then in my opinion it follows a very strong pattern of consistent molds and sizers made by Ideal, C.D. Ladd, & Winchester. If it doesn’t then it supports an inconsistent image of the 45 Schofield between cartridge manufacturers and reloading tool makers of that era. Which wouldn’t surprise me since they often had different concepts of the exact same caliber.

Either way in my opinion its rock solid physical evidence.
Until this bullet mold showed up I had no idea what the UMC bullet looked like.

Murph

 

[DWalt]

I know nothing about military reloading implements other than remote bases, and maybe some not so remote, cast their own lead bullets and reloaded both revolver and rifle ammunition as a matter of logistics. It would be good penalty duty for troopers in the guardhouse. I have also seen stories and pictures of military marked reloading items. I believe that local reloading practice stopped before WWI. BTW, it was C.D. Leet. I didn't know they made any reloading equipment, just ammunition.

When I was a kid, the local county Sheriff used jail trusties to reload .38 Special practice ammunition for his deputies. They had a pretty good setup in an area of the jail. I saw it once, believe it was a Star press. I suspect the trusties liked that duty, better than staring at walls and bars.

 

[BMur]

C.D.Ladd

See photo.
C.D.Ladd was an early huge Major Distributor in San Francisco that later over extended his investments abroad resulting in initially entering receivership in 1893. Long story but very interesting. That pretty much marked the end for his enormous Sporting goods business on Kearny St. that took up two addresses and most of a city block! His creditors had the Sheriff confiscate “All” of his goods from his enormous store while he was in Alaska. He ultimately way over extended his investments.

When things were better from the early 1870’s to 1893 he had control of a foundry in Sausalito across the Bay from San Francisco where they manufactured reloading tools for his Sporting goods store in S.F. that are not completely identified by collectors. Research is ongoing.

Most were painted Gold and unmarked but I have seen many caliber stamped and Company stamped in multiple locations on various tools. I have a pretty big file on that business history.

He supplied all the Militia in San Francisco with everything that you can imagine. The good old days!

Murph

 

[BMur]

Mold Arrived

Mold arrived today.
Wonderful relic. The cavity is very near mint with original case color. All parts have a matching E stamp. It’s the later mold with small pin and washer so it’s one of the last UMC manufactured about 1887.
The bullet already cast in the mold has bees wax lube on it and weighs 235 grains.
It’s much like the dug up Frankford Arsenal hollow base bullet.
It also mic’s at .452 so it’s within tolerance and could be easily sized down to .450.
So this mold is consistent with my research of commercial Schofield rounds.

Early rounds were outside lubed with single lube groove and later rounds were inside lubed double lube groove.

Murph

 

[glenwolde]

I know nothing about military reloading implements other than remote bases, and maybe some not so remote, cast their own lead bullets and reloaded both revolver and rifle ammunition as a matter of logistics. It would be good penalty duty for troopers in the guardhouse. I have also seen stories and pictures of military marked reloading items. I believe that local reloading practice stopped before WWI. BTW, it was C.D. Leet. I didn't know they made any reloading equipment, just ammunition.

When I was a kid, the local county Sheriff used jail trusties to reload .38 Special practice ammunition for his deputies. They had a pretty good setup in an area of the jail. I saw it once, believe it was a Star press. I suspect the trusties liked that duty, better than staring at walls and bars.

I would think it would be an awful temptation for some inmates to throw a double charge of Bullseye every now and then.

 

[DWalt]

Pittman's cartridge drawing that I have a copy of shows that the bullet's base cavity has a diameter of 0.270" and a depth of 0.277". It appears to be nearly conical. The diameter of the bullet's upper grease groove is, I think, shown as 0.392", but it is difficult to read. That drawing is of the earlier inside primed cartridge.