Unique + Lee 356-120-TC = minimal load data?

[Maximumbob54]

I have a bunch of these bullets cast up and coated in powder coat and they are all sized at .357" which originally I was trying to get a load dialed in for 9mm in a Beretta 92FS.

That project has so far failed miserable each loading.

I had another project with .38 and .357 with a 158gr bullet and while the .38's were a miserable failure the magnums are so far a huge success. I figured I would try the lighter bullets for 9mm in the .38's since the added pressure or velocity seemed to be key so far in several tests.

So I loaded up the 120gr bullets over a max load of 5.7gr of Unique with a few lower to start and sure enough the 5.7gr was at least slightly better than each of the previous loads. OK, so tonight I'll dig up a +P loading for these and see if that helps any.

Bam.

Both Lyman books say 5.7gr is max for a lead bullet of this weight and a 125gr JHP maxed at 6.0gr, the Lee book listed 5.3gr as a max, an older Speer had a scary load I won't repeat, and I'm not finding anything online that really helps.

How is there no +P load data for a 120/125gr lead or jacketed bullet for .38 special??? Does Unique start acting funny and thus the loads were tamed down and nothing +P is recommended? Am I just being blind and there is plenty of data available?

Tonight's results with 5.7gr off the 7 yard line:



Top right was first, bottom right, top left, and then bottom left. No, I have no idea why I went in that order, but the range was closing in about five minutes after I setup... Thanks for the range-master not just chasing me out for setting up at the last minute...

If anyone has Quickloads I would greatly appreciate the assistance. I want to try the 6.0gr listed for the JHP. My rationing for that is that since plated seems is sized to .357" and seems to usually work best at mild jacketed velocity and all ALL of the coated bullets I've tried at lead bullet velocity have been terrible but wake up when jacketed data is used then these bullets must be closer to being a plated or jacketed bullet than an actual lead bullet... (whew, run-on sentence...) The only reason for not using jacketed data with plated is always because the plating will sheer off and accuracy takes a dive as the bullets go into chaos leaded mode in the barrel. But I can push that 158gr epoxy coated bullet at magnum velocity and no leading and they stack up on top of each other in I can control my shaking hands. But at the end of the day I also like having all my fingers and no kaboom's under my belt...

Oh, and this was a pic of the loaded cartridge and the M10 used:



Any help?

 

[Nevada Ed]

My old Alliant data for the 125 Jhp for the 38 special was :
125gr Unique 6.4 at 1060 14,800 cup........
and the +P was 5.9grs at 1019fps.
I think they mixed things up.........? !

6.4gr of Unique in my m49 snub gave 938fps with a f100 with the Win. 125 SJhp bullet. ( 1099 in a 6" )

5.2grs of Unique with a 158 lead should be near a +P loading........... 5.5grs in my L frame 6" got 1014 fps.

Keep on trucking.............

 

[Ignatz]

I have a Laser-Cast reloading manual, and the listing for their 125TC with Unique is,
4.1 742fps
5.7 1012fps
1.450" minimum OAL

 

[Maximumbob54]

I have a Laser-Cast reloading manual, and the listing for their 125TC with Unique is,
4.1 742fps
5.7 1012fps
1.450" minimum OAL

Do they not list a +P loading? I didn't know Laser Cast had a manual. I will have to get a copy.

 

[Ignatz]

No P+ loading. It helps you start a load for a certain bullet and powder, but I find using a chrono is important for really knowing what's going on.
The IMR reloading center data on their webpage is very close to my chrono results at home. I have lots of reloading books at home (mostly older) but the IMR website has a nice modern listing. I'm using a lot of WST for my cast lead and moly bullets lately. Also I use PB, that is also on their website.

 

[Maximumbob54]

Going to load up some at 6.0gr and try those next. If I remember I might even try following A, B, C, to D this time.

 

[Jellybean]

Bob,
More often than not data for lead bullets is more of an indication of what their particular bullet can handle than what max. pressure they attained.

I've never experimented with the coated bullets, or read any decent work on their use and resulting ballistics, but as long as they hold up to the stress you should be able to use jacketed data, especially if they are sized to .357". I don't know how the resistance of the coating would compare to a copper jacket so work up gradually to the max., even though I'd doubt it's going to be more.

I'll also check some of my manuals and see if I can find the data you asked about.

 

[Maximumbob54]

Jellybean, thank you. And I continue to be shocked at how tough both the powder coating and epoxy coating is when done right and I do them the easiest and dumbest way possible which is to tumble them. Guys that go the extra mile and setup rigs to spray the bullets with a ES gun and bake them.

It's just odd that so far the only accuracy I'm getting is when you get to the top of the load data.

 

[Jellybean]

Bob,
I checked my RCBS.load program and a few printed resources and couldn't find more than you did. Most of the older data doesn't have anything for lead bullets that light and it is sort of odd that they don't give much data for Unique even with some heavier bullets. It could mean they either didn't get the best results with it or they didn't have any on hand, unfortunately we'll never know.

How do these bullets perform without the coatings? I'm almost wondering if it having a negative affect on them, like maybe if they are drying on their side it might be pooling on one side on the base and creating a condition similar to having a lopsided muzzle. But the problem there is why is it getting better with higher velocity, unless the pressure is great enough to flatten it out some.

Oh well, that's one of the joys of reloading.

 

[venomballistics]

Jellybean, thank you. And I continue to be shocked at how tough both the powder coating and epoxy coating is when done right and I do them the easiest and dumbest way possible which is to tumble them. Guys that go the extra mile and setup rigs to spray the bullets with a ES gun and bake them.

It's just odd that so far the only accuracy I'm getting is when you get to the top of the load data.

that is quite fascinating.
If it seems that they really need a good spanking before they'll work right in a pistol, at pistol pressures .... try this stunt in a rifle where the pressures are higher.
something tells me that will be a better home for the technique

 

[Maximumbob54]

.44 magnum in a Rossi 1892 is coming. I just have so little .44 magnum brass. I did an initial load test just to see if the coated bullets held together in it but I just shot them off hand without really testing for any accuracy.

 

[Jellybean]

Bob,
I was just wondering if they're sized a little too small and the coating is keeping them from obturating properly until the higher pressures. Try testing some that are coated but not sized at all. Just a thought.

I'm babysitting and can't take the time to think today.

 

[Maximumbob54]

Shooting them sized at .358" was ok but accuracy came from shooting them at .357" and I'm not sure they abturate any if at all. That's why I'm starting to think they are more like plated or jacketed than a regular lead bullet. If shooting the .44 magnum in a rifle with a max 2400 load didn't have the coating fail then they really are more like jacketed than lead. I promise to free up some .44 cases soon.

 

[Jellybean]

Well, this is a bummer. My wife read an article on Fox News that claims the EPA is outlawing lead in bullets, and now we have to go "green". We'll have to see how that pans out in the near future, I might not be getting into coatings after all and spending the money on some lathe tools and accessories.

 

[Maximumbob54]

6.0gr of Unique gave no better results so I'm backing it off back to the 5.7gr as there is no need to waste powder for no reason and make a bit hotter load than I want to rattle away with in a M10.

Results top and bottom left:



And the EPA always wants to ban lead in everything but they have NEVER been able to get any support at banning lead in ammo. That story is being hyped as much as the lead smelting facility closing. We get more lead as byproduct of too many other things anyways that to smelt it by itself. There is a reason they were far and few already. No worries. And everyone try to remember that between the Civil War spreading enough lead balls up and down the east coast and lead being part of the solder in all the copper pipes if it was as deadly as they make it out to be then everything would be long dead by now. Poo-poo.

 

[Jellybean]

Bob,
I'm hoping the ban is not real too. It's stupidity at it's finest, although it certainly wouldn't surprise me at this point. I don't visit the neighborhood gun store, but the night this came out their parking lot was overflowing into the street. Anyway, I found the link to Fox New's article so everyone can make what they want of it.

End of the line for the lead bullet? Regulations, bans force switch to 'green' ammo | Fox News

I've been getting interested in things like rail guns, the old gyro jet and electronic ammunition lately anyway. Not that I can afford researching any of that stuff either.