Unique Powder Charge for .38spl?

[Paul5388]

Here's some interesting data from 1961 concerning Unique and ball powders.

You'll notice the pressure data is included, so they weren't flying in the dark on these matters. The velocities are higher than what I recorded for 5.5 gr, but they were using 2 1/2" more barrel and I didn't use a jacketed bullet.

Another thought goes toward recognizing there weren't reports of any of these loads blowing any guns, including the K-38s used by Speer.

This image is from The Complete Guide for Handloading by Phil Sharpe in 1937 (my copy is the Third Edition, Second Revision 1953).

Again, the velocity and pressure is listed for a factory 158 gr lead bullet, which is very close to what Speer got in 1961.

Since Unique hasn't changed in formula since 1898, and still performs just like it did originally, it seems rather odd that we're seeing all of these load reductions from what was used 60+ years ago. All of this leads me to believe the older data rather than the newer data.

Now, the powder companies can put out all of the inflated numbers they want, but you just aren't going to find real world results like they imply you'll get. For some reason, it just isn't logical to think you can get the same velocity with 4.5 gr of Unique that you get with 5.5 gr.

 

[bmcgilvray]

My general purpose load for .38 Special since the mid-1970s is 4.8 grains of Unique with a 158 grain bullet. It gives 858 fps from a 4-inch Model 10 I shoot the occasional box of max Unique loads which is listed as 5.4 grains in the Lyman 46th manual. It gives 935 fps from the 4-inch Model 10 and roughly duplicates factory +P performance.

The .38 Special data has been steadily watered down through the years. It has reached the point where it is pathetic.

 

[redhawk444]

This is why I chronograph all that I shoot.

If you are getting 1000 fps from a 38 Sp. shooting a 158 gr. bullet and Unique, you are shooting a +P load.

A J frame gun with an aluminum frame will be safe with that load, but over time it will cause damage to the action.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Sounds like a good idea!

Well, I put 50rds through my Colt and 638 today at the range and they were a little warmer than I would like. Everything on the cases was normal, no signs of overpressure. However, I think I will keep the rounds I have left for a .357 gun or a newer .38spl with a larger frame.

I made quite a few of the 5.0grn loads so this was a lesson learned for me as a new reloader, test your load first before turning out a big batch.

On my next batch of reloads I will take the powder charge back to 4.7grns or 4.5grns.

Thanks again everyone for the advice.

Well, I don't use much Unique. Just me. But I have shot competition with folks that use a lot of it. One guy used it to fairly whip my fanny as a matter of fact!

I asked what his load was and he told me 4.5gr of Unique under any 158gr bullet, firm crimp. When I asked him the usual question when someone finds out you are using Unique, "Isn't it kind of dirty?" He said at 4.0gr it is terrible, at 4.5gr everything cleans up real nice.

Just a word to the wise!

 

[duckloads]

Interesting.

Should I contact Speer and/or Alliant to see what they recommend?

I certainly don't want to ruin my old Colt by putting too hot a reload through it.

How many grains of Unique do others here use for .38spl?

Try Trail Boss powder for a soft load. I've used it a bunch and like it.

 

[otteray]

With 158 grain lead:

4.5 Unique for my everyday load.

Yep, that's what I load with my j frame, too!

 

[zainyD]

Thanks guys. I ordered more bullets yesterday and will knock my load back 10% to 4.5grns when I put some more rounds together in a week or so.

 

[brucev]

With nothing but complete success I have for over 20 years used Skeeter Skelton's .38 Special load of 5.0 gr. Unique and a 158-160 gr. hard cast lead SWC. It has always worked exactly how it first worked when I first loaded it and fired it. I can see no need for a heavier .38 Special load. I see no reason to load the round down. Unique is Unique. If those who produce the loading manuals want to lighten the load out of concern for liability, etc., then they are welcome to do so. But I have had nothing but positive results with the above load. I have every intention of continuing to load it.

 

[kraigwy]

OK I want to add to the questions. My carry load for my 642 pocket pistol is 5.4 grns of Unique pushing a LSWC 150 grn (Lyman 358277). It barks but not as bad as some of the factory +Ps I've tired.

Now I just got a Model 64-3, its not marked as for +Ps, so is this load too hot for the Model 64???

 

[Paul5388]

According to S&W, any gun with a model number (post 1957) is safe to use with +P ammunition.

 

[PDL]

According to S&W, any gun with a model number (post 1957) is safe to use with +P ammunition.

I don't know where you got that from. When I asked about my M36 from 1981 they said 'not' for +P.
I've shot it with +P without a problem, by accident.
They didn't say it was dangerous, but they sure didn't say it was 'safe'.

 

[Paul5388]

From page 11 of the Owner's manual available for download on the S&W site.

Plus-P” ammunition should not be used in medium
(K frame) revolvers manufactured prior to 1958. Such
pre-1958 medium (K-frame) revolvers can be identified by
the absence of a model number stamped inside the yoke
cut of the frame. (i.e., the area of the frame exposed when
the cylinder is in the open position, see Figure 2).

Since that's the only exception, it stands to reason +P is permissible in the others, especially since it's a generic manual for all "Modern Style" revolvers.

Here's the address for all of the manuals http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...catalogId=11101&content=13015&sectionId=10504

Here's the manual for "Modern Revolvers". http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/other/S&W_Revolver_Manual.pdf

 

[PDL]

Ok, I see where you got your conclusion from. I guess what threw me off was that S&W recommends ammo that conforms to SAAMI pressure limits, and it was my understanding that +P .38 rounds exceed 'normal' limits. Coupled with the 'modern' .38s specifically stating they were +P rated, I didn't want to guess. S&W's reply in my case was that +P was 'not recommended' in my 1981 M36.

 

[Tell Sackett]

So, let me get this straight, Paul. I'm a tad dense so bear with me.

Any 38Spl with a model number on the crane is fair game for 38spl +P loading? WHOOOOOOOAAAAA!

Look out M14, here come' DA LOAD!
(Kinda! )
From the Hodgdon data website:
158 GR. HDY XTP IMR SR 4756 .357" 1.455" 5.5 928 17,900 PSI
(I may creep that up a bit. Funny there is no minimum load for the +P load.)

 

[Paul5388]

You'll notice the prohibition is only for pre-1958 K frames. That means the other frames, even prior to 1958 will utilize +P loads. According to Elmer, the 5 shooters can use 38/44 loads, if you can stand to shoot them.

Selecting the Handgun (original page # 65, Sixguns)
This five-shot feature of these little guns enables them to handle heavy loads because the bolt-cuts do not come over the center of a chamber as is true of all six-shot weapons. Rather, the bolt-cut, or indent, is between the charge-holes on these five-shot weapons. This feature allows full thickness of chamber metal over the cartridge case and the little guns will handle High Speed .38 Special ammunition perfectly in spite of their very light weight. Recoil, of course, is very severe from these loads in such extremely light weight guns, but the guns will take it and any man would rather have a sore hand than a slug through his middle. Another feature that adds greatly to the strength of the two little Smith & Wessons is the fact that their cylinders extend forward almost to the frame and leave very little of the rear end of the barrel projecting out of the frame unsupported.

 

[Skip Sackett]

I did test "THE LOAD" which is for sure +P+ in my M14, Tell.

No blown up gun, no sticky extraction, and no primer flattening.

Would I use a steady diet of them in it? No, too nice of an old gun to do that to it. Someone breaks in to my house and all I have is 6 of "THE LOAD" laying around, it's gonna get a dose of them, and so will the perp! Just different ends!

 

[zainyD]

Hey gang, just a quick update. I received my new Lee Modern Reloading Manual 2nd Ed. today along with some more bullets. I was rather surprised to see the load recommendations for .38spl using Unique powder, they were definitely on the light side. They suggest 4.3grns as a maximum for standard pressure and 4.5grns as a +P. Alliant's web-site recommends 4.7grns so I will try a small batch using 4.5grns and see how I like that. I can always knock it back if I feel the need.

I am contemplating getting a S&W Model 66 .357mag at some point so I will use the rounds loaded with 5.0grns of Unique for it.

 

[whelenshooter]

Hey gang, just a quick update. I received my new Lee Modern Reloading Manual 2nd Ed. today along with some more bullets. I was rather surprised to see the load recommendations for .38spl using Unique powder, they were definitely on the light side. They suggest 4.3grns as a maximum for standard pressure and 4.5grns as a +P. Alliant's web-site recommends 4.7grns so I will try a small batch using 4.5grns and see how I like that. I can always knock it back if I feel the need.

I am contemplating getting a S&W Model 66 .357mag at some point so I will use the rounds loaded with 5.0grns of Unique for it.

I don't really know what is going on, but it seems to me most of the recently published reloading data isn't worth a damn! I don't know if the companies are getting lawyer scared or what, but they are cutting their own throats. When the loads get too light there is too much chance of sticking a bullet in the barrel, which can end up bulging a barrel or worse. I'm going to be interested to see what the loads look like when the new Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook comes out. The loads in the 3rd edition Cast Bullet Handbook work great. If the 4th Edition handbook (I think that is the edition they are up to) has weenie loads, then we know the lawyers got to them. The .38 Special data in the 12th and 13th editions of the Speer manual can't be trusted; they don't even have data for 158 grain bullets. The loads in the 11th edition work great, and are higher than the few loads they do list for .38 special in the 12th and 13th editions. The data between recent reloading manuals don't agree with each other and they are all over the board. A person has to look at several sources, find the highest and lowest loads, work their way up from the low end trying the loads under many conditions of heat and cold to make sure you don't end up with loads that will give you squibs, and use what works for you in your guns. If you have a chronograph, that will give you real information about your loads. Don't be afraid of loads listed in the older manuals, however, just use common sense and caution when workng up your loads. Most of those older loads have actually been tested in pressure equipment. The only thing I can figure is that the lawyers have told the companies that they need to lie about pressure in their current manuals, or they tweak their equipment in a way that the loads give higher pressures than what they would give if tested in the manner they were tested in the past. I'm glad I'm an old bastard with a lot of experience and a lot of old manuals. A person getting into the reloading game now has such conflicting information available to them they can hardly know what they should do. Good luck!

 

[Ursoboostd]

I just loaded 4.4 grains of Unique under a 158gr LSWC (Missouri Bullets) I was measuring them at about 697fps out of a s&w 442 (1.8" barrel) -Wade-

 

[cp1969]

If they list pressure levels with the loads, and they're comparable to the pressure levels in older manuals, then the energy density of the powder must be more.