Universal Background Checks - My Response to Public Officals

[EvilBetty]

Am I mistaken in any part of my statement? Leave anything important out?

There are polls that show that as much as %90 of Americans support universal background checks. That is because at first glance it sounds like a really good idea. On the surface it sounds as if this legislation would help to keep guns out of criminal hands. On first glance I have to admit I initially didn't have a problem with the concept.

But eliminating private party sales, erroneously referred to as a loophole, will not significantly help combat the problem of criminals obtaining firearms. Most firearms used in crimes are acquired through straw purchases. A practice of obtaining a firearm that is already illegal.

In most straw purchases, criminals use an accomplice who can legally purchase a gun to acquire a firearm from a gun shop or FFL. That accomplice then hands the firearm over to the criminal, making the accomplice guilty of the crime of a "straw purchase". Breaking this law already holds a stiff penalty of up to 10 years in prison.

If this law and penalty does not deter criminals who are already using the ATF background check system, how will requiring private citizens to use the same system benefit society?

Aside from being ineffective, a simple law requiring that the sale of a firearm by a private party to a 3rd party, must be done with the assistance of a licensed firearm dealer, would put unnecessary burden on the private citizen in the way of extended travel and cost to both the seller and buyer.

But even worse, current draft legislation would make it a crime for a law abiding gun owner to loan a gun, give a gun to a family member, hold a class where firearms are handled, or leave guns in the presence of another individual without first meeting at an FFL to legally transfer the gun each time it changes hands.

There are enough laws on the books. If the government is truly concerned about crime involving firearms, they should do more to enforce the laws already on the books and stop wasting taxpayer money with ineffective and hurtful legislation.

 

[patricksw]

Straw purchase is illegal, but unless caught very soon after the initial purchase, how can you prove that a gun found on a felon two years after it has been initially sold to a 'legal' owner was a straw purchase and not a legal sale between two private individuals.

For that only point, the 'universal background check' may help. But just until these strawmen figure out that they just have to say that their gun was lost or stolen...

I would only accept the 'universal background check' if:
- I am able to do it myself online without going through an FFL and with an instant result;
- It does not apply to loan;
- It is free
- I don't need to keep record and no record of the type and serial of the firearm is entered in the system.

 

[Fishinfool]

A point not mentioned is the fact that a large number of guns used in criminal activity are stolen weapons. I would bet that the number of stolen guns used in criminal activity exceeds the number purchased via "Straw" purchase for that same purpose.

Larry

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Based on your below statement, do you support doing away with all background checks?

[[ But eliminating private party sales, erroneously referred to as a loophole, will not significantly help combat the problem of criminals obtaining firearms. Most firearms used in crimes are acquired through straw purchases. A practice of obtaining a firearm that is already illegal. ]]

 

[James&theGiant1911]

Straw purchase is illegal, but unless caught very soon after the initial purchase, how can you prove that a gun found on a felon two years after it has been initially sold to a 'legal' owner was a straw purchase and not a legal sale between two private individuals.

For that only point, the 'universal background check' may help. But just until these strawmen figure out that they just have to say that their gun was lost or stolen...

I would only accept the 'universal background check' if:
- I am able to do it myself online without going through an FFL and with an instant result;
- It does not apply to loan;
- It is free
- I don't need to keep record and no record of the type and serial of the firearm is entered in the system.

most all states including mine that have CCW law and license holders allow them to not have to call in a background check upon showing the license.

 

[pharman]

We'll ALL get a CCW

most all states including mine that have CCW law and license holders allow them to not have to call in a background check upon showing the license.

Well then I guess we'll ALL just get a CCW and that will solve the problem! Then what will they do?????

 

[patricksw]

most all states including mine that have CCW law and license holders allow them to not have to call in a background check upon showing the license.

Unfortunately in Florida, because the agency doing the background check for our CCW is not 'technically' a law enforcement agency, the background check is not considered enough to bypass the federal background check requirement for FFL transfer.

 

[James&theGiant1911]

Unfortunately in Florida, because the agency doing the background check for our CCW is not 'technically' a law enforcement agency, the background check is not considered enough to bypass the federal background check requirement for FFL transfer.

well there you go with Florida, I have a funny Florida story. They also allow ranges and shops that sell guns down there to rent firearms to no telling who with out a background check just to make money. I kind of knew about it in a round about way when I was down there for a visit. Was going to go to a local range on a Sunday and boom some freaking idiot goes to the range rents a gun (was a felon) and commits suicide. The moron could have taken out how many people before he finally shot himself? Lucky for everyone there he just shot himself. So I will never sit foot into a Florida gun shop/ range ever.

 

[EvilBetty]

Based on your below statement, do you support doing away with all background checks?

[[ But eliminating private party sales, erroneously referred to as a loophole, will not significantly help combat the problem of criminals obtaining firearms. Most firearms used in crimes are acquired through straw purchases. A practice of obtaining a firearm that is already illegal. ]]

That's a good question. I don't mind it so much in a gun shop, provided the information is truly not retained by the ATF. Since they are not being provided a make/model/serial number, and there is no cost associated with it. The records being kept by the LGS is probably not a whole lot different that what is kept at a dealer when you buy a car.

Sure would be nice not to have to dicker with it when buying from internet dealers though.

 

[EvilBetty]

Unfortunately in Florida, because the agency doing the background check for our CCW is not 'technically' a law enforcement agency, the background check is not considered enough to bypass the federal background check requirement for FFL transfer.

Either is MO for some reason...
Firearms - Brady Law / NICS - Permit Chart | ATF

 

[EvilBetty]

A point not mentioned is the fact that a large number of guns used in criminal activity are stolen weapons. I would bet that the number of stolen guns used in criminal activity exceeds the number purchased via "Straw" purchase for that same purpose.

Larry

Interesting article on that issue.
frontline: hot guns: "How Criminals Get Guns" | PBS

 

[EvilBetty]

Straw purchase is illegal, but unless caught very soon after the initial purchase, how can you prove that a gun found on a felon two years after it has been initially sold to a 'legal' owner was a straw purchase and not a legal sale between two private individuals.

For that only point, the 'universal background check' may help. But just until these strawmen figure out that they just have to say that their gun was lost or stolen...

I would only accept the 'universal background check' if:
- I am able to do it myself online without going through an FFL and with an instant result;
- It does not apply to loan;
- It is free
- I don't need to keep record and no record of the type and serial of the firearm is entered in the system.

I don't understand, how would that help? If the original purchase was done with the intent to provide that weapon to a criminal that can't buy a gun in the first place, why would those now two criminals now go and get a background check before transferring the weapon between them?

Remember this is a person that becomes a criminal when they knowingly buy a guy with the intent of giving / selling it to a criminal. The original purchaser just has never been convicted in a crime that would flag them in NCIS.

 

[Bekeart]

Universal Background Check - PROFIT Center for LGS

Universal Background Check - PROFIT Center for LGS

Owner of LGS has publicly stated that he is in favor the potential to collect $35 for five minutes of work.

He views private sales a "lost sales and lost profits".

Ten miles away another shop has announced that he will do any required Universal Background Checks for FREE!
(Only applies to FTF with both buyer and seller in the shop.)
He will still charge for receiving and processing those shipped to him for transfer at his current price.

Guess who gets my money.

Bekeart


QUOTE=bobermo;137144629]
Universal background checks could be a profit center for FFLs, so that may sway their opinion since there is financial gain to support it, but I'm sure there are some that don't want to be bothered with private transfers.[/QUOTE]

 

[patricksw]

well there you go with Florida, I have a funny Florida story. They also allow ranges and shops that sell guns down there to rent firearms to no telling who with out a background check just to make money. I kind of knew about it in a round about way when I was down there for a visit. Was going to go to a local range on a Sunday and boom some freaking idiot goes to the range rents a gun (was a felon) and commits suicide. The moron could have taken out how many people before he finally shot himself? Lucky for everyone there he just shot himself. So I will never sit foot into a Florida gun shop/ range ever.

Is being a felon a risk factor for suicide or mass murder?
I don't see where is the problem of renting a gun in a shooting range without a background check. I am more concerned with all these beginners without proper training who are flashing their muzzle, keeping their finger on the trigger, and achieving to shoot in the ceiling or floor with a target less than 10 feet away...

 

[patricksw]

I don't understand, how would that help? If the original purchase was done with the intent to provide that weapon to a criminal that can't buy a gun in the first place, why would those now two criminals now go and get a background check before transferring the weapon between them?

Remember this is a person that becomes a criminal when they knowingly buy a guy with the intent of giving / selling it to a criminal. The original purchaser just has never been convicted in a crime that would flag them in NCIS.

It won't stop felon to obtain a gun, but it will make it easier to prosecute the seller.
As I said before, how can you prove that a someone is a straw buyer when the gun found on the felon is a year old? The seller can claim that after a while he didn't like the gun and sold it. He can also claim that he didn't know that the buyer was a felon.

With the universal background this claim won't be possible anymore. If he sold it anyway, he will be guilty of selling a gun to a felon or to sell a gun without background check.

It will stop the straw buy. But as I wrote, these 'sellers' will now just say their gun was lost/stolen instead.


PS: I am against the 'universal background check' as presented now. I am just advocating one of the few positives of this proposed regulation. However the many many negatives are unacceptable.

 

[trap4570]

As if that is not enough - the Governor in Missouri has collected all the names of the persons who have conceal-carry licenses over the last four years and has made the records available to the Obama clan. This whole affair is getting out of hand.

 

[James&theGiant1911]

Is being a felon a risk factor for suicide or mass murder?
I don't see where is the problem of renting a gun in a shooting range without a background check. I am more concerned with all these beginners without proper training who are flashing their muzzle, keeping their finger on the trigger, and achieving to shoot in the ceiling or floor with a target less than 10 feet away...

surely not but it is the risk of being a felon in possession meaning jail time and fines. So if you are a felon regardless of crime you have no business with a gun anyway. You have lost that right.

 

[refugee from california]

I think that's true in other states as well, and also maybe up to the seller. Some large chain retailers still require a NICS even with a CCW. Store policy or uninformed staff I guess.

Not necessarily so, Just completed a purchase at Academy sports, a couple of days ago, showed CHL, filled out 4473, out the door in 10 min, no ncis check.

 

[James&theGiant1911]

Not necessarily so, Just completed a purchase at Academy sports, a couple of days ago, showed CHL, filled out 4473, out the door in 10 min, no ncis check.

depends on the state, roughly half

of the CCL states have a no call provision.

 

[rolomac]

Universal background check would not be "universal" - would not include mental patients, gangbangers, registered sex offenders, convicted felons, and others who would know better than to go through it. It would be another name for gun registration for law-abiding gun owners who are perfectly willing to line up and go through the process.

rolomac