"Unlikely" Guns Of Modern Bad Guys

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Wyatt Burp

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Some modern/semi modern creeps have used rather unlikely guns for their murderous deeds. By "unlikely" I mean they didn't read gun magazines to see how "inefective" their guns were according to the experts.
Albert Johnson (The Mad Trapper ot the N.W. Territories):
Everyone knows a 30-30 is a rediculous choice for a primary rifle for a guy who is apt to use it on large and dangerous game. Well, nobody told Johnson, who was an expert shot, unfortunately also when shooting at Mounties and posse members with his lightweight Savage.
Charles Whitman: This worthless loser didn't read about how much more versatile the .243 was to the 6MM Remington. But that's what he used to make all those long shots during his killing spree in Austin, Tx. in 1966.
Son Of Sam: Didn't this lunatic read Elmer Keith articles to realize his caliber of choice, the .44 Special, using store bought ammo wouldn't kill a cat? The damage he did with that "pipsqueek" load was devastating.
Don Nichols: One of the abductors of Kari Swenson in Montana in 1984. His single hunting rifle while living in the mountains for shooting everything was a Sako .222. His son had a .22. Nichols killed a posse member with his .222.
A lot of experts would consider their choices of firearms and calibers as inadaquate. Or maybe not the best available at the time. Unfortunately for all their victims that wasn't the case.
 
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Wasn't the Son of Sam gun also a Charter Arms? Doesn't he know low brand affordable guns are just junk and click no bang?
 
And I hear some guy in Dallas used some mail order rifle to kill some important guy in Dealy Plaza few years ago.
Jim
 
Yeah and an Army guy killed a bunch of soliders with that puny 5.7 round out of a pistol too! What do the "experts" know! Dale
 
A while back our state legislature got tired of local dictators (police chiefs) just destroying all the guns they held in evidence rooms. It was clear those chiefs were political animals and did pretty much as they pleased. So the state passed a law that declared those confiscated guns to be state property. Its worked, more or less. Now they bunch the guns into fair size lots and auction them off (to FFLs).

Anyone can go and inspect the treasures, you just have to be represented by an FFL when you pick up your "stuff" and haul it off.

I know we have a lot of posters here who don't like gun shows. I do. But one of the things I enjoy looking at are the guns I wouldn't own, and as my gun show partner says "I wouldn't stop and pick it up out of a ditch and toss it in the bed of my pickup truck!" Well at some of our shows we see the guns the "winner" of the state auction brings out. Gawd is it terrible junk. Some even are wired together, or black electrical tape holding the broken or missing grips on.

I even like the occasional picture of the ammo some of the guns were loaded with. Mixed and nasty.

About 20 years ago I was on a jury. It was a murder case, not captial, but a 2nd degree deal. When we got the case, they sent in all the evidence except the bags with the guns. Our judge later said we were the first jury in his memory that revolted. We sent out a note to send in all the evidence, not just the stuff they decided on. Very reluctantly, they sent in 2 guns and 2 bags of the "mixed" ammo. :)

We have jurys of 12 folks. Even the 5 women on our jury panel wanted to see the guns. Yes, I wanted to see the 3913 the survivor used to make the "non-survivor" a better person (dead.) Neither had all the same ammo. We don't know about the fired rounds.

It seems today's criminal element may have access to some pretty sophisticated weapons, but they don't avail themselves of them. Instead they use whatever gun they can make do with.

A friend/wildlife officer once made a point that he can tell how a confrontation with a hunter is going to go before the first word is spoken. A man wearing appropriate hunting clothes, with a major brand shotgun or rifle, and carrying maybe a visible 4" or so hunting knife will also have his hunting license, every time. Almost not worth checking him.

But when the guy has a street sweeper, or some custom modified shotgun, street clothes, or a bowie knife, it usually turns out he's also neglected to pay the Man for the right to hunt, too. Interesting how that works out.

Another local LEO made a point a while back. When he runs across a guy carrying, if its a recognized brand gun and its being carried in a well stitched holster, both appropriate for concealed carry, the guy will also have his CCW license in his billfold. The guy carrying a Lorcin or Jennings in his pocket or wasteband probably doesn't. Might not even have a billfold (but don't feel sorry for him, he'll try to pick up someone else's at the first opportunity.)

I wish Charlie would come along and add to this. I bet he's got a wealth of tidbits to add.
 
P&R Fan said:
And I hear some guy in Dallas used some mail order rifle to kill some important guy in Dealy Plaza few years ago.
Jim
Click to expand...
Hey, he was framed! He was just a patsy! The real killers were the CIA, I mean Prescott Bush, wait a minute, it was Castro! No, it was the mafia! It was Bigfoot! It was....

OSWALD.
 
It seems most BGs never kept up on firearms and ballistics since the roaring 20s. Love the gangsta movies where they hold their glocks above their heads sideways like a mattador going in for the kill.
Really, I think part of this comes from the popular PC thinking where "officals" keep telling us to give bangers everything they want, never irritate them by fighting back, leave it to the police pro`s that are only 10 minuets away etc. These fools are used to most following the PC to getting a free pass when they flash their stolen RGs.
On that 1950s Ed Gein case of the killer/cannable, ed just carried a loose .22 LR round in his pocket and picked up a display rifle in Mrs wardens coast to coast store in plainfield wisconsin and shot her in the back of the head with it as she was writeing up his bill for some kerosene.
 
feralmerril said:
It seems most BGs never kept up on firearms and ballistics since the roaring 20s. Love the gangsta movies where they hold their glocks above their heads sideways like a mattador going in for the kill.
Really, I think part of this comes from the popular PC thinking where "officals" keep telling us to give bangers everything they want, never irritate them by fighting back, leave it to the police pro`s that are only 10 minuets away etc. These fools are used to most following the PC to getting a free pass when they flash their stolen RGs.
On that 1950s Ed Gein case of the killer/cannable, ed just carried a loose .22 LR round in his pocket and picked up a display rifle in Mrs wardens coast to coast store in plainfield wisconsin and shot her in the back of the head with it as she was writeing up his bill for some kerosene.
Click to expand...
See what happens when people have easy access to kerosene!
 
Ed was a simpleton hermit. He lived in a rual area off nothing and didnt even have electricity or else didnt keep up his light bill. He was a "hired hand" for local farmers and even baby sat! While all that knew him thought he was a harmless small simple man when it all was put together he was thought to have killed at least 7 people but they convicted him on killing two business women, mary hogan who ran a country bar and Mrs worden who ran the local coast to coast. Leon "specks" murdy had just gave up waushara county sheriff and sheriff shly who replaced him had zero experiance. Specks was still I belive constable of wild rose. When specks looked the scene over he said if we solve this we also will have solved mary hogans murder in adams county. Mrs warden`s son and a friend had been out deer hunting, came back to the store and found blood, but not his mother. He also was the local constable of plainfield, I belive. Specks was a shirt tail relative of mine. His wife was my mothers 1st cousin and they were raised together. Helen also was once county sheriff in name only as I think you could be only sheriff for several terms due to some obscure rule. Not only were they related but our familys were close and visited. I last seen specks in 1979 and he died not much latter. We spent a afternoon together and discussed the case. I wish I had a tape recorder!
Specks figuered Ed had killed a brother when they were kids. He and the brother had went hunting and ed came back alone. He said his brother had wandered off and got lost. That night there was a marsh fire and latter ed took some searchers and walked right up to the burnt body.
After that ed`s father who some reported he hated died in a house fire.
When I was a boy a baby sitter was reported missing and never found, specks placed gein in the area and also found a levi jacket that was sun faded near the scene. It had chris cross brighter material where someone wore a harness to plow with horse`s, gein still farmed with horse`s back then. Two hunters were missing deer hunting in ed`s area. Specks got dad to help him look. They tracked them on ed`s farm but never did find them!
My mother ran a fruit stand in front of our house. One day she told of a odd ball hanging around it watching her. That night she was makeing her bed and saw the guy with his face pressed to the window. I was upstairs and heard her screech at him, "Why you devil!" Instead of grabbing dads revolver, she ran outside and turned "Pete" dads springer spaniel loose on him. Dad worked swing and shortly came home. Mom told him about it and dad had seen a old truck parked down the road with a guy legging back towards the truck. He went back but the truck was gone. A few years latter when the murder story broke mom instantly reconised geins picture as the peeking tom.
Specks said sheriff shly wanted him to transport gein to madison for a lie detector test. They got there late and he was to be tested the next day. Instead of driveing back and forth specks opted to sleep with ed in his cell. He got ed talking and ed said he couldnt controll himself on full moon nights. Ed gave specks a list of 48 graves that he could remember robbing. They dug up I think, two that were empty and stopped. Ed would read the obit`s of local women that died and go get them.
Specks and another deputy went to geins house. Specks had found where Mrs. Worden had started to write up kerosene. Specks knew of gein liveing without electricity. Gein wasnt home. Specks told me they kicked the door in. (Guys this was back in about 1956 and all people I am talking about are dead). They found a lot of macober evidence. A "life mask", (skun head), body parts hanging all over, skulls on bed posts, liver in a pan with water ready to fry, and the headless body of Mrs. Worden gutted and hung like a deer on the back porch!
Gein got life for the criminaly insane and died years ago. Shly, Specks and all others mentioned are all gone.
The state was going to have a auction to try to recoup some exspense`s by selling gein`s farm and gory personnal poessions. The entire neighborhood was up in arms over it. The night before the auction the entire farm was torched. It still is considered a "mistery". Specks knew who did it, and so do I.
I have heard that alferd hitchcock loosely wrote "The silence of the lambs" about the case.
 
Feral, thats pretty much what I heard from people who knew Gein at the hospital. He did a lot more than they know. One of th elaies I worked with retired this year lived in Plainfield as a child during that time and told me the same thing. Said the whole placed just burned down.
 
I had a guard cousin that I seen for the first time in many years, a few years ago when I went home on a visit. She is quite a joker and I am not sure she was serious. We were discussing gein and she told me his job inside was butcher!
Murty had to pull sheriff shly off gein when he lost it in jail and was trying to smash geins brains out. That was on record too. Specks was irked with shly. At the start of the case shly told murty we have a big world wide case here. Let`s sit on the story best we can and latter we can sell the rights and make out. Then shly went around murty and sold the rights to life magazine. I have read quite a bit on the case that is far different than specks version that he told me. In most reports specks is barely mentioned and shly took all the spotlight. Shly drove a grader for the county when specks gave up the job and ran and was elected. At first report shly called specks out and according to what specks told me and dad, he almost immediately suspected it had to be gein, went out there with deputy spees and found the mess. I dont know if spees is still liveing. There was another deputy, Dan chase, but I suppose he would be dead by now too. I have spotted many discreptancys in published material from the way specks told the story to dad and I.
As far as the fire go`s, I know the skinny, but was asked to keep my mouth shut but now all are dead. It was common knowledge from some people back home too that tackled me on it when I went home years ago.
I belive things were done to keep peace in the area. Think about it. Everyone in that area who lost a female relative in the time frame is still wondering did gein get grandma too?
 
Wyatt Burp said:
Hey, he was framed! He was just a patsy! The real killers were the CIA, I mean Prescott Bush, wait a minute, it was Castro! No, it was the mafia! It was Bigfoot! It was....

OSWALD.
Click to expand...

It was defiantly a conspiracy.
 
Feral, it is a small town so Ibet you are right a lot was done to keep the peae, you are thinking of the movie Phsyco by Hitchcock, the book was written by Robert Bloch who lived near the area.

i have driven by it and through it still a small town very quiet.
 
I believe it was the Texas Chainsaw Massacre that was supposed to be based on Ed Gein. Alfred Hitchcock's Psycho also had some elements from the story.

A few years after Gein died, the judge who originally found him unfit to stand trial, and later on tried him and found him not guilty by reason of insanity, came out with a book that gave his perspective on the case. Gein reportedly liked to strap on female body parts dug from recently-filled graves, and dance in the moonlight.

I can remember at the time the story broke, everybody was telling Ed Gein jokes:
Q. What was Ed Gein's favorite dessert?
A. Ladyfingers.

When he finally stood trial, there was a new wave:
Q. Why did the Defense Department want to get in touch with Ed Gein?
A. They wanted him to ship some arms to Vietnam.

Fortunately, I don't remember too many Ed Gein jokes. But I still get a little nervous every time I cross the river into Wisconsin.

To get back to the topic of this thread, Chai Vang, a Hmong hunter who in 2004 shot eight people (killing six) after he got onto their hunting land in Northern Wisconsin, reportedly used a Saiga-12. For what it's worth, a Wisconsin trooper of my acquaintance said his first reaction upon hearing the story was "self defense". A jury disagreed.
 
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when i was in basic training a dude from texas said him and his dad almost ate at that place in texas where the guy was selling people
 
Back around 1978 I found a book on Albert Johnson, "The Mad Trapper", by Dick North. Very well documented, the Savage 99 .30-30 is mentioned and the serial number given. The l98l movie with Lee Marvin, "Death Hunt" is a cockeyed Hollywood mangling of the real story, which is well nigh incredible. If you can find the book you won't forget it.

That and another of North's books, "The Lost Patrol", led to a trip up to the NWT to see some of that country in 1979.

There really are "strange things done in the land of the midnight sun..."
 
Bat Guano said:
Back around 1978 I found a book on Albert Johnson, "The Mad Trapper", by Dick North. Very well documented, the Savage 99 .30-30 is mentioned and the serial number given. The l98l movie with Lee Marvin, "Death Hunt" is a cockeyed Hollywood mangling of the real story, which is well nigh incredible. If you can find the book you won't forget it.

That and another of North's books, "The Lost Patrol", led to a trip up to the NWT to see some of that country in 1979.

There really are "strange things done in the land of the midnight sun..."
Click to expand...
I have the North book "The Mad Trapper of Rat River". It's great, but is mostly solving the mystery of who "Albert Johnson" was. And yes, Deathhunt had nothing to do with the true story of Albert Johnson, except they got his rifle right. Lee Marvin plays the relentless mountie who is on his trail, but in real life that guy he played was killed by Johnson early in the chase. I still like the movie a lot if I remind myself it's 99.8% fiction.
In North's book he mentioned that Albert Johnson had first purchased a Winchester 1876 in 40-60 caliber. A caliber that I think had the balistics of a .41 Magnum in a four ton rifle. The lighter Savage made more sense. My lawyer flies his twin engine plane all over Canada fishing so i loaned the book to him since the Albert Johnson chase was the first to use a plane to such invaluble effect tracking him and supplying the posse. And the plane didn't crash like the movie.
 
I've been around enough murders for the last few days so I'll sorta get back to the original thread. I started as a LEO in 1969. For some reason I think we actually had more killings back then than we do now. The ones nowadays just seem to be more vicious. The weapon of choice in my earlier days of LE was undoubtably the .22 caliber first, shotguns second, and then the various other calibers. In my first 20 years as a LEO I saw more people shot and killed with .22's than anything else. The reason for this is that .22's are more affordable where I live than some of the other stuff. I've never seen a study on this. I can only go by what I saw.

The next weapon choice was a knife. About half of the early homicides I was involved with involved knives. Lots of stabbed and carved up folks seen in this career. Knife murders were usually the most vicious. Some of these perps didn't know when to stop. In all but a few cases the weapons, knives and guns, were cheap junk that apparently worked when needed. We actually got a bunch of cheap guns out of an evidence locker (expired cases) and used them for weights on catfish lines. Anytime I see one of these old pot metal pistols it brings back memories.

A few years ago criminals weapons choices seemed to upgrade somewhat. A lot of the guns were still cheap but the 9 mm was starting to be the favorite caliber. The more expensive guns such as Beretta and Glock were usually carried by "businessmen."(drug dealers who could afford more) In recent years the crooks have found that the bigger calibers seem to work better, or at least impress folks more, and we're seeing more 40's and .45's with a sprinkling of 7.62X39 in the form of AK's and converted SKS's. The old favorites (22's, .38's, and an oddball .32) still "pop" up from time to time, but the new favorites seem to be the larger calibers. Some crooks buy just the caliber in a *** form and a few of the smarter ones buy caliber and quality.

In times past an officer who confiscated a gun usually got to take it home if it wasn't involved in a crime after a trial was over. I collected and gave away hundreds, mostly junk. The judge or some other court official usually got the ones that came through court on a felony charge. Nowadays the AG's office requires that departments keep accurate records of confiscated guns and are also required to document proper disposal through auction or destruction. My department auctions them off. The only gun I can legally keep is a "lost" gun,ie. a throwdown or something similar that wasn't used in a crime. "Wow, I found this here gun lying here. Anybody knows who it belongs to?"

I've still got a few interesting things laying around the house even though I gave away or "loaned" and never got back a lot of stuff. Those that come to mind are: (1) a S&W .38 S&W caliber snubbie w/stags that a wife shot and killed her lawyer husband with back in the 50's. It came from the estate of the presiding judge. It's really a neat piece and is now a heirloom in my estate. (2) A H&R .410 sinble barrel shotgun. The previous owner used it to kill three different people in three different cases. The first two cases were ruled justifiable homicide. On the third case he was convicted of manslaughter. (I witnessed this shooting) (3) A RG 10 .22 caliber revolver a woman used to shoot her abusive husband. (through the front screen door) (4) A RG .38 a man killed his wife with after catching her with his brother. (5) An early S&W model 38 that was used by a fellow officer who shot and killed a guy who was trying to shoot me with one of the aforementioned cheap .22's 40 years ago (5) a couple of cheap butcher knives, a hawkbill carpet knife, AND...The Machete of Death! (a guy got chopped 37 times with this one. The rest of it I gave away or it got lost.
 
I've presided in some murder trials that involved some interesting weapons. One involved a Hi Point 9mm - not my choice for sure, and it only fired once, but it was sufficient for a contact shot to the back of the head with a 9mm hardball load. Victim sure never knew what hit him. Same thing with a side-by-side 410 shotgun - that was used to dissolve a cocaine partnership. Had one where two guys shot it out inside a small garage with nearly identical M97 Winchester shotguns. One of them also carried a high end .45 auto 1911. He used buckshot, the other guy had #6 birdshot. Guess who won. He also administered a final shot to the victim from about 6" in the face. Trust me, you really can blow someone's head off with a 12 ga. The oddest one was the twosome who did the deed with a 8 3/8" S&W M27-2. They didn't have any bullets so they used it like a ball peen hammer and beat the victim to death with it. That was ugly. Mostly it seems like these guys use whatever they have handy. There mostly isn't a lot of forethought or planning involved.
 
I forgot about the one I gave Burg. If you look real close you can see the imprint from where she was carrying it. It eventually wound up with someone who needed it.
 
And then there was albert packer a controversal cannibal in the old west. He was accused of killing and eating 5 of his companions in 1874 on a mineing trip in the colorado rockies. They were hopesly lost in winter.
When I was in high school at the time of gein`s trial there were many jokes and poems, one a parady of twas the night before christmas.
Twas the night before christmas
and all through the shed
not a critter stirred,
just ol ed.
I forgot the rest but it got gory.
I remember another story where supposedly some woman had a miscarrage as she had ate a sandwich gein gave her that tasted strange. When she heard the news she lost her baby. Probley just a untrue story, I hope.
I also heard that ed had a young male friend that tried to tear out ed`s throat when he heard what they were arresting him for. Think I heard that one from specks as I never read it.
I seen the house a number of times before it was burnt down. Once I made a blunder. I was working in yosemite. A woman got out of a car with wisconsin plates. I asked her what part she was from. She said plainfield. I stupidly said, old ed`s stomping grounds, hun? She broke down and cried and said Mrs. Worden had been her best friend! I felt like xxxx!
 
Tom Horn used a model 94 30-30 and a double action colt revolver, he was stumped by the safety on an automatic pistol during his escape.

Now i don't know if he was a bad guy or a man that was framed for the murder he was executed for. It is pretty clear he did kill men for money.

It used to be around here the bad guys would use jennings and Bryco now they are up to glock look a likes.
 
We had a manhunt here in NY in 1973 involving Robert Garrow who killed four people. Until Bucky Philips it was the largest manhunt in NY. Garrow carried a .30-30 but not sure of the make.
 
Charles Whitman was actually a bit of a gun nut, or so it would seem. He had an entire bag of weapons and not just the 6mm Remington rifle. Some period photos show all his stuff laid out. I think he also had Spam and deoderant with him. A great deal of his shooting was with a .30 caliber M1 carbine and not with the 6mm rifle. At the time, the gunwriters of the day often said the 6mm was the best chambering and maybe it was/is.

The Charter Arms .44 Special involved in the Son of Sam killings is another gun that was actually popular for a while in the gun magazines. It is also possible that there was more than one shooter using similar weapons. At the time there was something of a shortage of "quality" guns so Charters were pretty common, even as back up guns for LE work.

Things I've seen bouncing around with less savory folks that I've met or had peripheral encounters with have included:
a .22 SBR that had a bolt apparently made from a door bolt and where the cases swelled up ever time it was fired.

An old cut down 16 gauge loaded with slugs paired with an unknown - Iver Johnson I think - 38 SW revolver used in a home invasion robbery.

A High Point (recognized the grip) shoved down the front of a local drug dealers shorts as he did a silly little threatening dance.

A selective fire Chicom folding stock AK that made its way home from Iraq.
 
"(4) A RG .38 a man killed his wife with after catching her with his brother.
C.S.

What'd he do to his brother?

GF
 
GatorFarmer said:
Charles Whitman was actually a bit of a gun nut, or so it would seem. He had an entire bag of weapons and not just the 6mm Remington rifle. Some period photos show all his stuff laid out. I think he also had Spam and deoderant with him. A great deal of his shooting was with a .30 caliber M1 carbine and not with the 6mm rifle. At the time, the gunwriters of the day often said the 6mm was the best chambering and maybe it was/is.

The Charter Arms .44 Special involved in the Son of Sam killings is another gun that was actually popular for a while in the gun magazines. It is also possible that there was more than one shooter using similar weapons. At the time there was something of a shortage of "quality" guns so Charters were pretty common, even as back up guns for LE work.

Things I've seen bouncing around with less savory folks that I've met or had peripheral encounters with have included:
a .22 SBR that had a bolt apparently made from a door bolt and where the cases swelled up ever time it was fired.

An old cut down 16 gauge loaded with slugs paired with an unknown - Iver Johnson I think - 38 SW revolver used in a home invasion robbery.

A High Point (recognized the grip) shoved down the front of a local drug dealers shorts as he did a silly little threatening dance.

A selective fire Chicom folding stock AK that made its way home from Iraq.
Click to expand...

Gator-where the h-e-double toothpicks have you been?????????????? I've missed ya!! This would be the thread that brought you back from the dead :D
 
Very very macabre subject but the culmination in my opinion is how Vasili Blokhin killed 7,000 Poles in one month with the .25 acp. Everyone knows that a .25 can't kill anyone.
 
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