Using Modern Ammo

[JohnnyW]

A relatively new guy to the forum here. I've been a recreational shooter and reloader for a number of years now (about 45 in fact). Most of the revolvers I acquired over the years are S&W, with the earliest from the early seventies. I retired a while back and have been able to spend more time on my shooting and reloading.

I've also started to really enjoy earlier revolvers. A model 1905 manufactured in 1906, and a model 1902 manufactured in 1904 made their way into my safe not too long ago. They are not museum pieces, but good shooters in good shape. No doubt there will be others added in the future.

I've only used "standard" (lower velocity) ammo in them. I've read S&W didn't start heat treating cylinders until the 1940's (don't know if that's true), the metallurgy of the barrel's has been improved, etc.

My question for you smart guys is at what point (manufacturing date) would you consider it to be safe to use higher pressure ammunition in these revolvers that are getting "long in the tooth"? I've done searches on the forum but haven't found the concise info to include the "why".

Also, a few years I started using Berry's plated bullet with good success. I've not used them in my older guns (only lead cast bullets). I'd appreciate your thoughts on copper plated bullets in the earlier S&W models (i.e. the 1905 models).

Thanks in advance for sharing your experience.
JohnnyW

 

[quinn]

I'm not sure there is any universal answer to your question. I've only been reloading about 5 years longer than you. A reloading manual from back then is far different from toddy's version... loads have been deturned in the name of lawsuit prevention. That said I am not a fan of "how hot can I load it before the wheels fall off?". The one thing I follow is that for all the earlier guns, I would only shoot lead as that is what the barrels were designed for with the exception of the 1917 45acp warhorse. You will get some more, much more knowledgeable answers here, though.

 

[DARE]

In 1920 S&W introduced heat treated cylinders on all models. In the 1941 S&W catalog they say .38 special 158 grain lead or metal point at 870 fps. In 1980 Cartridges of the World says 158 grain factory load 855 fps. Don't think copper plated bullets would be a problem unless they increased pressure (don't think they would). Might avoid a +P load in your 1906 gun, but otherwise do not see a problem.

 

[Doug M.]

I am not an old revolver guy, so take my response for what it might be worth (not enough for a cup of coffee). Buy wadcutters and shoot them. No real risk of damage or discomfort, and even ok for self-defense in a pinch. Save higher performance ammo for your 1970s and later models.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

A former forum member, SaxonPig (ArtDoc), wrote about the +P Phenomenon several years back before he passed away. Interesting reading.

BTW, "1945 – Cylinder heat treatment was eliminated for the .22 & .32 ‘I’ frames, K22, K32 & K38, and the .44 & .45 N frames, Oct. 12." S&W Chronology of Changes by Supica and Nahas. To my knowledge, metallurgy hadn't changed significantly since the .38 M&P was introduced. The US Air Force adopted the K-38 Combat Masterpiece and developed some +P+ ammo that was quite hot to shoot in it. I don't recall reading about any cylinder failures from that.

 

[JohnnyW]

Appreciate the information. Very helpful. It doesn't sound like there are any significant limitations associated with the earlier Pistolas. Just don't want to do anything to "stress" a 120 year old piece (cause they both shoot great).

So, assuming a 158g lead bullet, gear my velocity to the range of 800-850 fps and all should be right with the world. I should be able to use whatever pressure that equates to as an upper limit for any adjustments I might make in the future and be confident I'm not doing damage.

I'm not looking come up with super hot loads. Trying to understand the pistol so that I don't overly stress it or do damage.

Copper is pretty soft, but not a soft as lead, so I think playing it conservative is the best approach.

 

[JohnnyW]

Very interesting article. Several take-aways from short reading. Thank you for sharing

 

[H Richard]

My only comment is that many of these old early 1900 revolvers were used with some "HOT" ammo, and did not fail, but, extended use does place more wear and strain on parts, so I wouldn't recommend any +P for these old revolvers.

 

[Kinman]

Most modern ammunition designed for the older firearm market has been downloaded to provide them a safety cushion in case someone blows a firearm up from their use. Especially cowboy action loads, most of those people are just popping balloons and busting plates or ringing steel, no point in overloading. There has been much discussion regarding the 32-20 and hot ammo designed for lever action rifles chambered in the same caliber. I have not found any boxed ammo on the shelves today that is called "Express", which used to be a hotter load available for rifles in 32-20. Literally everything I have found off the shelf for 32-20 is 100gr lead and safe to shoot in early S&W handguns. The only box I have found that I would be cautious with is Winchester Super X, also using a 100gr. lead bullet. I have a new Garmin-Zero Chronograph and it would be interesting to see how fast this stuff moves, I don't want to break up a full box. When I reload for 32-20 I separate pistol from rifle by using different colored boxes, the Model 92 likes the little 85gr. pills moving much faster than what I use in the pistol where only lead or plated bullets are used.

 

[Lt.Donn]

I am not an old revolver guy, so take my response for what it might be worth (not enough for a cup of coffee). Buy wadcutters and shoot them. No real risk of damage or discomfort, and even ok for self-defense in a pinch. Save higher performance ammo for your 1970s and later models.

Good advice

 

[Piwo]

From what I have read, researched and been told by old guys, the heat treatment of Smith and Wesson K frame cylinders had nothing to do with strength or concern about ammunition. There were no high pressure rounds in 38 special in the 1920s that would require heat treatment for safety reasons. Not until 1930. The high pressure ammo in 1930 was for use in the n frame.

The purported purpose of heat treatment for early K frames had to do with potential wear to the bolt notches. Up till the time of heat treatment, the issue was dealt with by the insertion of hardened inserts, inletted into the stop notch and polished over. This was a very labor intensive proposition. This step was eliminated by making the whole cylinder hardened through heat treatment. So it was a cost reducing procedure. The early K frame 38 cylinders were, and are, safe for any standard 38 special ammunition. They certainly could be fired with plus P in a pinch if absolutely necessary without blowing up the gun. I don't see a reason to do so under normal conditions.

I have a 1930s era M&P 38 special I inherited. It is a work of art. I do not carry it for self defense or bear hunting so I have no reason to shoot it with any ammo other than it was designed for. I do not use it for anything other than recreation. When I don't load for it I stick with 158 grain LRN factory ammo. Cast and swaged bullets abound and are less expensive than jacketed or plated bullets. Coated bullets are out there if leading is a concern. Load data for mild to medium loads are available everywhere. That is what I stick to for posterity and enjoyment. Simple is better. Less is often more. Stick to that mindset and you will have decades of care free shooting enjoyment.

Just my opinion.

 

[fatcat3]

JMHO. Rule #1, if you need +P you need a bigger gun.

 

[Muley Gil]

Most modern ammunition designed for the older firearm market has been downloaded to provide them a safety cushion in case someone blows a firearm up from their use. Especially cowboy action loads, most of those people are just popping balloons and busting plates or ringing steel, no point in overloading. There has been much discussion regarding the 32-20 and hot ammo designed for lever action rifles chambered in the same caliber. I have not found any boxed ammo on the shelves today that is called "Express", which used to be a hotter load available for rifles in 32-20. Literally everything I have found off the shelf for 32-20 is 100gr lead and safe to shoot in early S&W handguns. The only box I have found that I would be cautious with is Winchester Super X, also using a 100gr. lead bullet. I have a new Garmin-Zero Chronograph and it would be interesting to see how fast this stuff moves, I don't want to break up a full box. When I reload for 32-20 I separate pistol from rifle by using different colored boxes, the Model 92 likes the little 85gr. pills moving much faster than what I use in the pistol where only lead or plated bullets are used.

This load is safe in revolvers.

 

[JohnnyW]

From what I have read, researched and been told by old guys, the heat treatment of Smith and Wesson K frame cylinders had nothing to do with strength or concern about ammunition. There were no high pressure rounds in 38 special in the 1920s that would require heat treatment for safety reasons. Not until 1930. The high pressure ammo in 1930 was for use in the n frame.

The purported purpose of heat treatment for early K frames had to do with potential wear to the bolt notches. Up till the time of heat treatment, the issue was dealt with by the insertion of hardened inserts, inletted into the stop notch and polished over. This was a very labor intensive proposition. This step was eliminated by making the whole cylinder hardened through heat treatment. So it was a cost reducing procedure. The early K frame 38 cylinders were, and are, safe for any standard 38 special ammunition. They certainly could be fired with plus P in a pinch if absolutely necessary without blowing up the gun. I don't see a reason to do so under normal conditions.

I have a 1930s era M&P 38 special I inherited. It is a work of art. I do not carry it for self defense or bear hunting so I have no reason to shoot it with any ammo other than it was designed for. I do not use it for anything other than recreation. When I don't load for it I stick with 158 grain LRN factory ammo. Cast and swaged bullets abound and are less expensive than jacketed or plated bullets. Coated bullets are out there if leading is a concern. Load data for mild to medium loads are available everywhere. That is what I stick to for posterity and enjoyment. Simple is better. Less is often more. Stick to that mindset and you will have decades of care free shooting enjoyment.

Just my opinion.

Very interesting, Ya learn stuff around here.

With the "heat treating" ending in 1945, I can't help wondering if there were other mitigations for the "potential bolt notch" issue