Wadcutters were developed for target revolvers with LONG barrels

[Squib_Load]

The VERY low WC velocities we see today are not the velocities WCs got in target revolvers. Back in early 1970s I had a 38 Spl with an 8⅜" bbl. That was the target length.

Now that chronos are common I have a better idea what the velocities were with those long barrels back then. They were lower, but not anemic.

Have the WC powder charges changed since then?

 

[Dave Lively]

Wadcutters haven't changed, the guns people shoot them in has.

It used to be wadcutters were both designed and used for target shooting. These days they are often used in lightweight snubbies due to the low recoil and precision target shooting with a revolver is a thing of the past for most people.

I often hear that modern ammo is loaded lighter because ammo makers worry about liability but think the real reason rated velocities are lower is affordable chronographs and YouTube make it hard to get away with the inflated velocity numbers that were common in the past.

Even if ammo makers are loading ammo lighter why would they reduce the powder charge in wadcutters? They were always loaded lightly.

I don't shoot competively but really like shooting wadcutters through my 686. Makes me feel like a marksman for a change.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

The VERY low WC velocities we see today are not the velocities WCs got in target revolvers. Back in early 1970s I had a 38 Spl with an 8⅜" bbl. That was the target length.

For my Police Department I shot on PPC team. I started with my duty revolver a six inch 1966 S&W Model 14. When I got to the "A" Team I bought the first of several PPC revolvers. All were six inchers, and 2.7 grains of Bullseye did the trick out to 50 yards.

 

[rwsmith]

Well, I TRY to shoot bullseye target, but my longest pistol barrel is 6" and the next down are 4" and they get shorter from there. I probably do a tad better witth 2.8 gr. Bulleye powder and HB wadcutters than any other load, but my pistol skills are merely adequate for SD and fun at the range. Give me a carbine, though and I'll shine much brighter.

 

[Rick H.]

In my area back in the day an 8" barrel on a pistol meant that it was a pistol used for hunting or silhouette shooting. I tried a couple of S&W +8" barrels many years ago thinking they may help my scores, but alas they did not. My steadiness with a barrel over 6" long evaporated quickly. I was okay for a cylinder full, but that was about it. Forget a barrel over 6" long for any type of action shooting. There were some very nice PPC pistols made back in the 70's, but I could never afford them being a brand new cop with a family. Back then store bought .38 cal. W/C ammunition was the rule of the day for serious match shooting with reloads being relegated to practice. Things have come a long way since that time and I almost never shoot a revolver now, only semi-autos. Easier for me to shoot well and much easier to clean.

Of course back in the 70's and 80's law enforcement agencies were hand picking their top shooters to partake in regional pistol competitions for bragging rights. We even had a trophy cabinet in our front entryway to our district HQ where all the shooting awards were displayed from our team members. I stopped at HQ one morning and went in the public entrance only to discover all the awards had been tossed in the dumpster on orders from our main state headquarters. So in one simple directive all the efforts of many people past and present were done away with so we didn't appear overly aggressive to the public. Story has it someone came into our district HQ and saw the shooting trophies and filed a complaint with our state headquarters. The result was swift and sure. That was also about the same time when we could no longer obtain a box of practice ammo each month at no cost to us. The "special" revolvers issued to the pistol team members were also recalled and eventually sold off. Nothing good ever happens that fast! All very sad at the time.

Rick H.

 

[Reloader Fred]

Back in the 1970's, I shot on our department pistol team in PPC matches pretty much every weekend during the season, plus about 1,000 rounds per month in practice. My PPC gun was a 6" S&W Model 14, with a Bomar rib installed, that I still have. From a Ransom Rest, it would put 10 rounds of Remington HB wadcutter ammunition into a 1 7/8" group consistently, using all 6 chambers, at 50 yards. We loaded all our practice and match ammunition using a local supplier's HB WC bullets and 2.7 gr. of Bullseye, which came very near the same accuracy as the Remington factory ammunition. I never shot a perfect 600 score, but I shot a lot of 598's and one 599 before I promoted to Sergeant and was transferred to the far reaches of the county and had to leave the team.

Precision shooting at 50 yards isn't as popular as it once was, which is a shame. I think a lot of the younger shooters believe a pistol bullet falls to the ground after 7 yards, since they never shoot their handguns at any longer distances..........

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[flyer338]

Wadcutters on top of 2.7 grains of bullseye probably reach peak velocity in a 4" barrel. The advantage of a longer barrel is not increased velocity or increased accuracy; it is a longer sight radius.

 

[Squib_Load]

Wadcutters on top of 2.7 grains of bullseye probably reach peak velocity in a 4" barrel. The advantage of a longer barrel is not increased velocity or increased accuracy; it is a longer sight radius.

How many grains of powder were used in the commercial loads? Which powder? Have the commercial loads been chrono'd in 4" and 8" barrels? I don't have an 8" 38 Spl anymore, otherwise I'd chrono them myself.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

How many grains of powder were used in the commercial loads? Which powder?

What you are asking is, "what is a Factory Duplication Load?"

For the .38 Special 148 grain Match Wadcutter. Federal & Remington was 2.7 grains of Bullseye. Winchester was 3 grains of W231.

Regarding accuracy the .38 Special 148 grain Match Wadcutter is the best test for a two, 2 1/2, three, four, five, six or 8 3/8 inch revolvers. JMHO

 

[Squib_Load]

What you are asking is, "what is a Factory Duplication Load?"

NO. I did not ask for that. I didn't ask for a duplicate.

 

[rwsmith]

Wadcutters on top of 2.7 grains of bullseye probably reach peak velocity in a 4" barrel. The advantage of a longer barrel is not increased velocity or increased accuracy; it is a longer sight radius.

Hickock45 showed me that pocket pistols aren't any less accurate than longer barreled pistols. He had several to show and that guy has HUGE hands so the guns looked like something out of a bubble gum machine when he was holding them. He proceeded to ring his gong with them consistently. Somebody said, "That gong is REALLY big. I SAID I'd do good to hit the side of a barn at 80 yards with one of those peashooters.

 

[6string]

Anyone interested in the topic of 38 Special wadcutters would do well to seek out the ample published data that was written during the era in question.
The constraints of time and space, not to mention forum policy regarding copyright, do not permit replicating that information here.

As a good place to start, look for work written and published by Gil Hebard (his Pistol Shooters Treasury is a must read), and the series of articles written by Al Miller for Handloader Magazine in the 1970s. (There was an entire article just on case preparation!)
Try the search engine provided on this forum to find a few tidbits.

Beyond that, another suggestion is to research the Star Universal Reloader tool, the Star Progressive Reloader tool (which was ONLY made for 38 Special) and the details in how they were set up, the loads they were assembled to replicate, how they were intended to be used (specifically with the recommended Hensley & Gibbs molds), and the results obtained.
The Star tools were the Gold Standard for serious reloaders and target shooters from the 1930s until the company closed its doors around 1990.
Today there is, not surprisingly, a website & forum dedicated to Star tools.

Match grade wadcutter ammo, as offered by Remington, WW, and Federal back in the mid 20th century, was of a higher quality than what is now sold (a sad reflection on the current state of what passes today for pistol marksmanship in America).
The competition was fierce not only on the match firing lines but also amongst the manufacturers.
In addition, the factories used non-canister grade powder that was not sold to the public.

(Since forum folks here like pictures, I included the somewhat relevant photos shown above….both 38 wadcutter shootin' machines of the mid-20th century.)

 

[hardluk1]

I have owned DW revolvers since '76 when I turned 21 . My primary hunter is a 15-2 model with a 8" and 4" barrel set and I have shoot many a solid bass 148gr wd thru it loaded to mid upper 800fps velocity using be, h110 and 231/hp38 over the years . Our daughter shot far more of these loadss than my wife and I but now that I getting along in years and run the 4" mbarrel set only I might shoot more of these old loads again . My old hunting loads were 170gr sp and 180 hc swc and 1400fps was not hard to manage . I also used a 2moa ultra dot on it going back to early '91 and small groups were not hard to achieve using a dot optic .

 

[cmj8591]

The main purpose in the development of the wadcutter was the ability to make a neat hole in the paper target to facilitate scoring. Over the distances that the bullseye matches were shot, the blunt bullet shape really didn't come into play. It's the same with the H&G style SWC's for 45's except that the long nose was added to make the bullet feed in a semi auto. The velocities were kept under 800fps in the day because a lot of the indoor shooting ranges had velocity limits due to the back stop technology at the time. Of course recoil and accuracy were more important than velocity because the bullet only had to go fast enough to go through the target. It's hard to say what the actual velocities were because no one outside of the ballistic labs had chronographs but I think it was pretty close to that 750-800fps range.

 

[John_M52]

View attachment 788669View attachment 788670Anyone interested in the topic of 38 Special wadcutters would do well to seek out the ample published data that was written during the era in question.
The constraints of time and space, not to mention forum policy regarding copyright, do not permit replicating that information here.

As a good place to start, look for work written and published by Gil Hebard (his Pistol Shooters Treasury is a must read), and the series of articles written by Al Miller for Handloader Magazine in the 1970s.
Try the search engine provided on this forum to find a few tidbits.

Beyond that, another suggestion is to research the Star Universal Reloader tool, the Star Progressive Reloader tool (which was ONLY made for 38 Special) and the details in how they were set up, the loads they were assembled to replicate, how they were intended to be used (specifically with the recommended Hensley & Gibbs molds), and the results obtained.
The Star tools were the Gold Standard for serious reloaders and target shooters from the 1930s until the company closed its doors around 1990.
Today there is, not surprisingly, a website & forum dedicated to Star tools.

Match grade wadcutter ammo, as offered by Remington, WW, and Federal back in the mid 20th century, was of a higher quality than what is now sold (a sad reflection on the current state of what passes today for pistol marksmanship in America).
The competition was fierce not only on the match firing lines but also amongst the manufacturers.
In addition, the factories used canister grade powder that was not sold to the public.

(Since forum folks here like pictures, I included the somewhat relevant photos shown above….both 38 wadcutter shootin' machines of the mid-20th century.)

I have both of those and they are way more accurate than me. My dad shot competitively and I spent many a Saturday in the basement loading shells into the long plastic tubes for his star reloader. .38's and 45. He cast all his own bullets from wheel weights. He and a friend developed an add on to the star that rotated the plate and ejected the loaded round driven by a wire cable from the handle. I can still hear the click-clunk sound of a round being ejected into a tray every two seconds or so with the pull of the handle. The add on device was a machined and highly polished work of art and never caught on due to their cost of manufacture. I think there were cheaper versions.

When I was very young he supplied reloads to the PA state police for their practice. We moved around a bit and bullseye shooting was on the decline so he just reloaded for himself and sold trays of cast bullets to his buddies who reloaded.

 

[6string]

There was a case feeding accessory for the Star made by a company called "Hulme". It was the only factory approved aftermarket accessory.
They work well.
A cool thing about the Star was that it was so adaptable to homemade improvements.
It was practicalky mandatory that you would devise some sort of wooden bench or platform so that loaded rounds could drop out the bottom into a box or drawer.
By the way, the price for the Star Universal in the mid-70s was $750!

 

[StrawHat]

NO. I did not ask for that. I didn't ask for a duplicate.

Factory ammunition is loaded with non canister powder. They buy powder by the train car load and blend it to produce the results they desire. Not something we reloaders do anymore.

Kevin

 

[John_M52]

There was a case feeding accessory for the Star made by a company called "Hulme". It was the only factory approved aftermarket accessory.
They work well.
A cool thing about the Star was that it was so adaptable to homemade improvements.
It was practicalky mandatory that you would devise some sort of wooden bench or platform so that loaded rounds could drop out the bottom into a box or drawer.
By the way, the price for the Star Universal in the mid-70s was $750!

View attachment 788696

My dad had the lubricator sizer and a Star and a Hollywood press. I remember the sound of the sizer spitting out cast bullets. Then a second star and eventually a shot shell reader too. All I could afford was a MEC shot shell reloader. He eventually sold the stars (I wasn't worthy) and stored the Hollywood at my house in NJ. Superstorm Sandy turned the Hollywood into an expensive hunk of rust. At least I got his Model 52 and a few revolvers.

 

[John_M52]

I checked a K-38 (model 14) with an 8 3/8" bbl on a flight several years ago. The airport used to let LEOs into the x-ray screening room when checking firearms. The TSA guy asked for my key and then took out the K-38 and said holy *stuff* and waved it around for his buddies saying check this out! I was not pleased. Love the paper punch holes from a WC.

 

[bph9]

Years ago I read an article where a guy put a snub nose revolver in a ransom rest and tested it to eliminate the human error factor. He found out that snub nose guns actually shot more accurately than long barrel revolvers but of course with way less velocity.