Walther PPK/S - Buy Smith & Wesson Built?
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ColbyBruce
Member
Wasn't there a recall on some early versions? A former co-worker of mine has one and carries it everywhere. I prefer hardball ammo in that type of handgun as it is unlikely you will obtain much expansion from the short barrel.
kilo charlie
Member
I have one of the "post recall" S&W PPKs. I run hardball ammo in it and it has been 100% reliable. Its a little snappy, but very accurate and fun to shoot.
Grayfox
US Veteran
I have one in .32acp. Mine has been completely reliable.
If your's needs the recall, send it to Walther, Ft. Smith, AR. They did the recall on mine and had it back to me in 8 days.
Don't waste your time trying to get info such as when and how many were made. According to S&W, all the records on these guns are in storage and unavailable. This is Smith's red-headed step child and they will barely admit they even exist.
If your's needs the recall, send it to Walther, Ft. Smith, AR. They did the recall on mine and had it back to me in 8 days.
Don't waste your time trying to get info such as when and how many were made. According to S&W, all the records on these guns are in storage and unavailable. This is Smith's red-headed step child and they will barely admit they even exist.
Pretty gun WR.
We have two 380s, bought new post recall, and they both run as they should.
No issues with our XTPs.
100/115/120gr Penn PC leads, or the 115gr XTPs as well as Hornady's 115gr FMJs.
BE and N320.
For those new to guns:
Best to lower the hammer with your thumb when decocking to minimize wear and tear. Just like my old M59.
When removing a loaded mag, the top round is a bit forward, so it needs a little pull.
Point shooting practice with Laserlyte yesterday.
Nice triggers as well.
They're most accurate when leaning against a palm tree and wearing a Tux.
We have two 380s, bought new post recall, and they both run as they should.
No issues with our XTPs.
100/115/120gr Penn PC leads, or the 115gr XTPs as well as Hornady's 115gr FMJs.
BE and N320.
For those new to guns:
Best to lower the hammer with your thumb when decocking to minimize wear and tear. Just like my old M59.
When removing a loaded mag, the top round is a bit forward, so it needs a little pull.
Point shooting practice with Laserlyte yesterday.
Nice triggers as well.
They're most accurate when leaning against a palm tree and wearing a Tux.
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Alk8944
US Veteran
I have a S&W built PPK .380 bought used. When I shot it the hammer was "following". It was sent back to Walther USA and returned functional. I have had no issues with the gun since. I have shot mostly various hollow-points. The only real issue I had is the extended 'beaver tail" that S&W added to prevent hammer or slide bite. The beaver tail struck the second joint of my right thumb and would tear the skin when firing. It was ugly too! Re-contoured the knuckle of the frame to be like original Walther guns and took care of that problem.
ACORN
Member
Pretty gun WR.
They're most accurate when leaning against a palm tree and wearing a Tux.
Don't forget the martini!
OP
I'm looking at buying a S & W built (Talo limited, like pictured above) PPKS.
My reason in posting my question is that I have been told to stay away from the S&W examples. Much better to go with the new Arkansas built examples.
I trust you guys. Not so much the knucklehead's hanging out on the corner by the pool hall. LOL
Pass on this one, or invest in a new Arkansas built?
,
My reason in posting my question is that I have been told to stay away from the S&W examples. Much better to go with the new Arkansas built examples.
I trust you guys. Not so much the knucklehead's hanging out on the corner by the pool hall. LOL
Pass on this one, or invest in a new Arkansas built?
,
If you want it as a shooter / self defense pistol, then hard pass.
I owned an S&W built PPK/S. I like the PP series pistols and have several. The only one I ever sold was the S&W built semi-clone of the PPK/S.
S&W acquired the rights to build the PPK and PPK/S in the US and as a mature design all they had to do was put it in production. Sadly one or more of the folks running the project decided they could and should improve it.
Adding the lengthened tang was an effort to make it more appealing to people with large fleshy hands and or folks who think it needs to be shot with the modern high, thumbs forward grip.
Aesthetically, it ruins the lines, and practically with the sharp edges they left on the tang it isn't much friendlier to the hand and it digs into the side in IWB carry, which is not a good thing on a pistol that makes sense to carry IWB due to its concealable nature.
Worse, they made a number of minor detail changes that resulted in not one but two safety related recalls and adversely impacted reliability on top of the safety issues.
Some of the changes were pointless and or shamelessly proprietary such as changing the dimensions of the grip frame so that existing PP and PPK/S grips would not fit. Some were just style failures, like adding the billboard style serial number.
And over all, fit and finish was nothing to write home about by Walther, Manurhin and Ranger standards. Most of the edges were left sharp and it came across as less refined than previous PP series pistols.
In short, they managed to alienate the traditional PP series fans with changes that did not improve the design, and failed to deliver an updated or quality product that would attract new PP series fans.
Despite its faults it still has its (small) set of fans, perhaps because it's a S&W or because they just don't know any better. But for the most part it's a pistol that S&W quite rightly has chosen to conveniently forget.
——
I don't have much experience with the current production PPK/S and PPK pistols, but I like the Ranger made PPK/S pistols as well as the Manurhin made PP pistols that I own.
Quality wise, after WWII, Manurhin built a better pistol than than Walther, which didn't start fully producing them again until 1986. The post war, pre 1986 Walther PP series pistols were made by Manurhin with only the slides being roll marked and finished by Walther along with final assembly of the Manurhin made parts.
I have an S&W made PPK/s:
I do not recommend buying one.
Mine has constantly experienced failures to feed and extract with many types and brands of ammo.
It's been to S&W, it's been to Walther. It's been to my regular gunsmith who has a great reputation.
I can't trade it or sell it.
I'm going for broke: It is at cylinder and slide to see if they can work some magic with it.
I like small metal .380's I have a Beretta 85, and am down to one Colt Mustang Pocketlite. I am considering an Sig 232 I saw in the shop the other day.
I'm putting good money after bad to try and get the S&W PPK/s running right. I'm hopeful C&L can make it work. They list it on their website as a thing they do well.
I do not recommend buying one.
Mine has constantly experienced failures to feed and extract with many types and brands of ammo.
It's been to S&W, it's been to Walther. It's been to my regular gunsmith who has a great reputation.
I can't trade it or sell it.
I'm going for broke: It is at cylinder and slide to see if they can work some magic with it.
I like small metal .380's I have a Beretta 85, and am down to one Colt Mustang Pocketlite. I am considering an Sig 232 I saw in the shop the other day.
I'm putting good money after bad to try and get the S&W PPK/s running right. I'm hopeful C&L can make it work. They list it on their website as a thing they do well.
I have spoke of this before but my dept bought the S&W PPK/S for the administration staff of about half dozen guys. None of the guns would function reliably through a qualification course and there was whining about the grip with several getting hand cuts from the slide. All of the guns went back for evaluation and most returned with similar malfunctions. S&W asked what we wanted to do and the general consensus was to swap them for 442's. The factory obliged so the staff guys got 442's for plain clothes pocket or ankle carry and were also issued Sig 239's in .40 caliber (same as investigators) for duty carry. Some even carried 229's if they wanted the regular gun belt with all the accessories when they wanted to look like real cops…
OP
Enlightening and informative.
I'm glad I asked here.
The information you guys provided is well appreciated.
.
I'm glad I asked here.
The information you guys provided is well appreciated.
.
Marshal Tom
Member
I had one and sold it. It was terrible! I have two of the Interarms before that and they worked just fine. I would not own one.
Gene L
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I don't know about the quality or S&W PPK/S, but they get a lot of bad press. I have a Ranger-built PPK and it eats anything you can put into it. Another issue is I'm not sure the current USA will work on Smith made PPK/S. The new PPK/s have good reviews.
Grayfox
US Veteran
Yes, Walther USA will indeed repair S&W made guns. They will do the recalls and honor the warranty.
Do NOT send a S&W Walther to S&W for any work. There have been many horror stories regarding S&W fixing these guns. Extremely long waits, scratched up guns and shoddy workmanship.
They don't recoil under those circumstances, either.
__________________
I'm too old to Shake it or just about anything else,
so stirred it will be.
On a serious note, while our S&Walthers work as they should, I'd buy a Fort Smith and hope for the best.
I have read that some of those have issues.
Our M460 Carry, bought new, went back to Smith after just two rounds of Hornady's 200gr FTXs.
They replaced the trigger and cylinder stop.
Echo40
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I've owned a S&W PPK/S since 2016 and it has never once failed me. I actually put it through a rather extensive test once in which I was actively trying to make it fail, but it only hiccuped once when I attempted to chamber a round which had a substantial amount of bullet setback, ergo it was therefore completely out of spec and was unlikely to feed in any gun.
I carried this beauty from 2016 to 2019 when I replaced it with a Ruger LCP, but as you can tell by the series of pics I took of it throughout the years, it still holds a special place in my heart.
Sure, the LCP is smaller, lighter, chambered in the same cartridge, and only holds one less round in the magazine, but it's obviously nowhere near as aesthetically pleasing, and nowhere near as accurate either.
Purists will call Smith & Wesson blasphemous for daring in their hubris to think themselves capable of improving upon the design, but obviously they did, and Walther themselves approved of the changes because they were carried over to the latest iteration of the PPK(/S) produced by Walther.
Smith & Wesson improved on the feed ramp which was previously a two piece design which had trouble feeding modern Jacketed Hollow Point ammunition by making it into one continuous slope. In addition, they extended the beavertail in order to prevent the infamous "Walther Bite" from slicing open the hands of shooters as the original design was known to do because of it's stubby and frankly inadequate beavertail.
Once again, the purists will tell you that it wasn't a problem and accuse anyone who has suffered from slide bite while shooting a PP Series pistol of using an "improper grip" then proceed to "educate" you on the "proper" method of gripping the gun which is awkward, unintuitive, and strangely has never appeared in any instruction manual or official documentation for the gun.
Once again, Walther themselves has adopted the changes that Smith & Wesson made to the PPK(/S) which can be easily verified by checking out their website...
PPK/s | Stainless – www.waltherarms.com
It looks familiar, doesn't it?
I carried this beauty from 2016 to 2019 when I replaced it with a Ruger LCP, but as you can tell by the series of pics I took of it throughout the years, it still holds a special place in my heart.
Sure, the LCP is smaller, lighter, chambered in the same cartridge, and only holds one less round in the magazine, but it's obviously nowhere near as aesthetically pleasing, and nowhere near as accurate either.
Purists will call Smith & Wesson blasphemous for daring in their hubris to think themselves capable of improving upon the design, but obviously they did, and Walther themselves approved of the changes because they were carried over to the latest iteration of the PPK(/S) produced by Walther.
Smith & Wesson improved on the feed ramp which was previously a two piece design which had trouble feeding modern Jacketed Hollow Point ammunition by making it into one continuous slope. In addition, they extended the beavertail in order to prevent the infamous "Walther Bite" from slicing open the hands of shooters as the original design was known to do because of it's stubby and frankly inadequate beavertail.
Once again, the purists will tell you that it wasn't a problem and accuse anyone who has suffered from slide bite while shooting a PP Series pistol of using an "improper grip" then proceed to "educate" you on the "proper" method of gripping the gun which is awkward, unintuitive, and strangely has never appeared in any instruction manual or official documentation for the gun.
Once again, Walther themselves has adopted the changes that Smith & Wesson made to the PPK(/S) which can be easily verified by checking out their website...
PPK/s | Stainless – www.waltherarms.com
It looks familiar, doesn't it?
Pretty gun WR.
We have two 380s, bought new post recall, and they both run as they should.
No issues with our XTPs.
100/115/120gr Penn PC leads, or the 115gr XTPs as well as Hornady's 115gr FMJs.
BE and N320.
For those new to guns:
Best to lower the hammer with your thumb when decocking to minimize wear and tear. Just like my old M59.
When removing a loaded mag, the top round is a bit forward, so it needs a little pull.
Point shooting practice with Laserlyte yesterday.
Nice triggers as well.
They're most accurate when leaning against a palm tree and wearing a Tux.
115 gr XTPs? Good 9mm load but the 90 gr XTP is the norm for .380. There are the odd 115 gr load recipes, but even in a 3.4" barrel the velocity is well under what the 115 gr XTP needs to expand.
—-
Manually lowering the hammer is sound advice on an old PP series pistol as the surface hardening on the hammer and decocking block migrates deeper over decades of hammer falls and they've been known to break. All of the pre war PP and PPK pistols are now at least 80 years old.
It can also a be problem with much younger pistols. The M9 had significant issues with fire control part breakage with low round count but often function checked M9s. The repeated hammer falls and decocking required in the function checks were literally testing them to the point of failure.
——
Agreed on the palm trees and tux. Don't forget they are also amazingly quiet when suppressed as evidenced by all the 007 movies where they just make a "pfftt" sound.
I'm also a fan of small all metal .380s. I have a Kimber Micro and an RIA Baby Rock, but also several of the FEG steel frame commercial pistols based on the PP, PPK/S and PP.
The AP9S and APK9S pistols imported by Interarms were very well made and very nicely finished. Interarms started importing them to this very high standard of finish after Walther terminated its contract with Manurhin, and before it was clear whether Interarms would be able to get distribution rights for the PP series pistols. Then they kept importing them as an option to their own Ranger made PPK and PPK/S pistols.
FEG APK9S, PPK/S and PP:
AP9S, APK9S and APK7S
The KBI imported FEG SMC was the smallest pistol imported after GCA 1968, using the magazine extension to squeeze in just over the minimum height restriction. They are not as nicely finished as the Interarms imported pistols, and with an aluminum frame are a bit snappier, but they are basically a an aluminum frame PPK clone.
I've owned a S&W PPK/S since 2016 and it has never once failed me. I actually put it through a rather extensive test once in which I was actively trying to make it fail, but it only hiccuped once when I attempted to chamber a round which had a substantial amount of bullet setback, ergo it was therefore completely out of spec and was unlikely to feed in any gun.
I carried this beauty from 2016 to 2019 when I replaced it with a Ruger LCP, but as you can tell by the series of pics I took of it throughout the years, it still holds a special place in my heart.
Sure, the LCP is smaller, lighter, chambered in the same cartridge, and only holds one less round in the magazine, but it's obviously nowhere near as aesthetically pleasing, and nowhere near as accurate either.
Purists will call Smith & Wesson blasphemous for daring in their hubris to think themselves capable of improving upon the design, but obviously they did, and Walther themselves approved of the changes because they were carried over to the latest iteration of the PPK(/S) produced by Walther.
Smith & Wesson improved on the feed ramp which was previously a two piece design which had trouble feeding modern Jacketed Hollow Point ammunition by making it into one continuous slope. In addition, they extended the beavertail in order to prevent the infamous "Walther Bite" from slicing open the hands of shooters as the original design was known to do because of it's stubby and frankly inadequate beavertail.
Once again, the purists will tell you that it wasn't a problem and accuse anyone who has suffered from slide bite while shooting a PP Series pistol of using an "improper grip" then proceed to "educate" you on the "proper" method of gripping the gun which is awkward, unintuitive, and strangely has never appeared in any instruction manual or official documentation for the gun.
Once again, Walther themselves has adopted the changes that Smith & Wesson made to the PPK(/S) which can be easily verified by checking out their website...
PPK/s | Stainless – www.waltherarms.com
It looks familiar, doesn't it?
Well…not quite.
In 2013 Carl Walther discontinued its arrangement with S&W and started selling its own firearms in the USA,
Since 2013, Carl Walther has handled the marketing, distribution, sales, and servicing of its firearms in the USA through the newly-formed Walther Arms Inc., a subsidiary of the PW Group of Arnsberg, Germany. PW owns both CARL WALTHER GmbH Sportwaffen and Umarex. Walther Arms Inc began production in Fort Smith AR in 2018.
I would not read too much into the fact they are making them on former S&W tooling, and would not say it reflects acceptance of the S&W version as being a "superior" design.
Having owned Walther, Manurhin, Ranger and S&W examples, I can say based on my experience with them that the S&W isn't superior anywhere other than apparently on paper.
Here is what I know. There was a recall on S&W made models within a certain range. I inherited one of the Lew Horton laser engraved models that fell within the range. I called Walther in Arkansas or somewhere nearby. They sent me a USPS shipping ticket. I sent it off without any magazine in it. It came back in 10 days, fixed and with a new finger extension magazine .
I then gave it to # 2 son who wanted a James Bond gun
.I then gave it to # 2 son who wanted a James Bond gun
380 data from Lyman's 49th.
I have a Master Chrony but have not used it for anything but airguns and arrows.
380s and the 460s will be the first.
P238s vs S&Walthers.
I chronographed a lot of .380 ACP with 90 gr XTP and 9mm loads with 115 gr XTP loads.
Both bullets have the same published expansion floor starting at 800 fps.
In actual practice both the 90 gr XTP and 115 gr XTP need close to 1000 fps to reliably expand.
I can get just under 1000 fps with the 115 gr XTP with a max load in the 9mm Luger 2.9" Kimber Micro 9. I get about 975 fps with the 90 gr XTP in the .380 ACP 2.75" Kimber Micro.
Any slower with the 90 gr XTP and expansion becomes very inconsistent, with poor expansion and only about 60% expanding at all at 900 fps. Much below 900 fps the 90 gr XTP just doesn't expand at all.
The 115 gr XTP performance is nearly identical with a minimum velocity threshold for reliable expansion right around 1000 fps.
The 115 gr hollow point, and in particular the 115 XTP just doesn't have sufficient velocity to expand at .380 ACP velocities. You might as well be shooting 115 gr flat points.
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I have one of the new production PPK's in .380
It works fine, and Walther USA does have great customer service.
It's not a carry piece or a night table gun. But I always wanted one and didn't feel like paying top $$ for a pre-68 in the box with all the goodies.
JMHO YMMV
It works fine, and Walther USA does have great customer service.
It's not a carry piece or a night table gun. But I always wanted one and didn't feel like paying top $$ for a pre-68 in the box with all the goodies.
JMHO YMMV
.455_Hunter
Member
My late production stainless S&W PPK in 7.65mm has been 100% with warm Euro ball.
Echo40
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Yet here it is on the official German website as well...
PPK/S 3,3" (2851989) | Carl Walther GmbH
Strange that they should have a product page for an item which has made unapproved modifications to their design.
One would think that if Walther didn't approve of these modifications, much less believed them to be of an inferior design, then certainly they wouldn't sell them domestically, especially when they were made by a foreign firearms manufacturer.
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Clearly, they were "approved" as Carl Walther gave them the license to make and distribute them in the US.
However, once again for the slow kids in the class, that's not the same as saying those approved changes are truly regarded as improvements over the original. It's a question of whether it's worth entirely retooling to revert back to the original given the high lack of parts commonality with the non S&W PP series pistols.
And again, owning all of them, I clearly feel the S&W changes were not improvements on the design.
——
To put it in terms you might better understand, old school Walther PP series fan look on the S&W version just like old school S&W revolver fans look on the new S&W revolvers with locks and two piece barrels.
Those changes were clearly "approved" but that doesn't make them a good thing.
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Ive had both German built and S&W built, both non stainless and stainless. In German I have had both .32 and .380, they both ran like Swiss watches, never a hiccup and had solid steel frames all the way around the grip frame. I got the Smith in a trade and was excited to get a PPK in .380 that was stainless. First off you should know by now that they are heavy, which makes them inherently more accurate than the usual light framed .380 semi auto. The sights work very well, they all would be able to be used as bug out guns and put rabbits on the table. I like .380 and believe in them as valuable back up pistols. The first thing that turned me off on the Smith was the incomplete steel grip frame housing, it does not wrap completely around the frame, its open at the rear. I wanted to use a particular grip stock and that was not an option with the open back frame. Never had a hiccup concerning firing, fired flawlessly all three. I showed it to a friend that offered a trade on a very nice 1.75" model 15-3 and I took the trade, with some added boot...those Walthers are expensive.
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