We all need a hand every now and then

[BillBro]

Im not sure if oversized hands have always been offered orbif theyre a newer thing but Id really like to hear from the pros on this.
Are S&W armorers trained to fit the hand to the gun or to fit the window etc to accommodate the hand, particularly oversized hands?
Is there a correct way and then other ways that will work or are there several ways that are all correct depending on the gun and component or just the preference of the person performing the work?
Is there a difference in the outcome? Quality of the work? Longevity.

Ive just been reading about this operation and I see folks say that they fit the hand to the gun instead of altering the frame in any way. Some people say the opposite.

I know brownells sells specific window files for the window. Why if the frame shouldnt be altered? I can see being compelled to have to use an oversized hand from there on out but is that a problem?

Just asking because I have one that needs doing and I bought the PC oversized hand already and I really dont want to leave my gun at the gunsmith another 5 months so Im contemplating performing the work myself. Naturally Id have to tackle the ratchet as well but that a whole other can of worms. Just curious about THE correct way to fit the hand, if there is only one.

 

[Protocall_Design]

The way I fit oversize hands is to file the hand window on the center pin side only, just enough for the new hand to have a free sliding fit by itself, with everything out of the gun. Then put it on the trigger and fit it to the ratchets by diamond filing just the nose on the center pin side until it works correctly.

Most times, you won't need to do anything to the ratchets (best case), because they have all worn to the same place. If they are different, fit the hand to the lowest ratchet(s), then fit the other ratchets to match.

If it wears down again over time, you can get a new OS hand and file it down less to make up for ratchet wear. The ratchets are soft and malleable, the hand is hardened tool steel.

Someone else may do it differently.

 

[MygunisaS&Wrevolver]

If your oversize hand fits the existing hand window then I would then fit the ratchets to the new hand.
If you have a Power Custom way over size hand you probably need to open the left side of the hand window to fit it and then dress the top left side of the hand to fit the ratchets just like the Power instructions indicate.
If you don't have a copy of Larry Kuhnhausens S&W revolver repair manual I would definitely get it and read the section on fitting hand and ratchets.

 

[ken158]

Hands and ratchets are a few of the fitted parts of a S&W revolver that give most the biggest problems. At the "school" students are taught to fit the smallest hand that works. You do nothing to the hand other than dress the top side to fit it to the window. Cutting ratchets is a bear. I recall most everyone brought gloves to class after the first day to hold the extractor rod open so you could file the ratchets. Getting all the ratchets equal takes patience but you are rewarded with a "good job" when an instructor checks your work. My class built model 64's for a LE contract. They would not tell us what department but I sure sent them a few that were timed perfect and had excellent triggers!

 

[BillBro]

But in a S&W Armorer class setting where they are teaching you HOW IT IS DONE, according to S&W, the process is this, you file the window so that the new hand moves freely or would they say you make the new hand fit into the frame. Im not trying to be argumentative in the least its just that Ive read, from multiple seemingly knowledgeable people who are in both camps, either or both or their way is the correct way.
Ive been contemplating this job for months and have read up on the process and hope by now I understand the individual steps in the process as a whole, even bought the part and the window and ratchet file fully intending to tackle it at home and every time I get it all out, read up again I chicken out. I know I can do it, guess I am just needing a little reinforcement to rid myself of the sense of trepidation.


Much appreciation for the responses thus far.

 

[armorer951]

Need a hand?

If the cylinder doesn't "carry up" properly, (factory calls this DCU) then you'll want to eliminate some other issues prior to considering the hand ratchet interface........

Is the extractor rod out of alignment? (straighten, remove run-out)

Is the front locking bolt imposing too much tension at the end of the extractor rod?

Is the yoke aligned properly?

Does the hole through the yoke shoulder fully accommodate the extractor rod without undue contact during cylinder rotation? (open diameter slightly if necessary)

On older style guns, is the yoke button properly fit to the yoke screw?

Is the B/C gap correct? (is the cylinder dragging on the barrel extension?)

Is there excessive end shake? Moving the cylinder back to correct headspace issues may correct the timing/DCU problem.


With apologies beforehand, the following is my paraphrase from the armorer's manual......

"Once these issues have been ruled out, and a determination has been made to install a new hand, you can start by simply replacing the existing hand with a new one. New hands typically measure between .093" and .095".
If the old hand mics at .095" and will not function properly, then you may have to install an oversized OEM hand, which typically measure .095" - .097". The oversized factory hands, however, may bind in the hand window, and if this is the case, you will have to file (open) the hand window to accommodate width of the required new hand. (added by me: after checking the new hand for burrs, of course) USE AN OVER-SIZED HAND AS A LAST RESORT."


I have found over the years (a lot of them) that despite having a DCU condition with a currently installed worn factory hand that is .094".....a brand new .094" hand may fix the issue. Tolerances here are very close. Hand pin wear, and minor trigger spec differences can also affect carry up. So much so that a new trigger my actually solve the issue without further intervention.

Be sure you check and evaluate the revolver for DCU with empty casings installed in the chambers. This aligns the extractor and cylinder into the same position they will be in during live firing.

Once the threshold is reached where the cylinder will not carry up with factory replacement "oversized" hands, then the only option is to have a new extractor installed, or install a new, aftermarket oversized hand, like the one from Power Custom. Power Custom hands are usually .100" (or larger), and will necessitate opening the hand window in the frame. I personally would rather fit a new extractor than to alter the hand window. Just my opinion. You can't put the material back on the frame after it's removed, and I don't like altering the fame in any way, if at all possible.

 

[BillBro]

Ah, yes, thank you.

I can eliminate a few possible causes, I think.

I dint have a dial indicator but I can not see any gross bend or run-out of the ej rod.

Not sure of rhe spring pressure of the front locking bolt and what pressure its applying to the ej rod.

Yoke aligns perfectly according to the alignment rod from PC, drops freely into place and does not bump, rub or otherwise impinge on the frame in any way that I can see.

Used yoke reamer to ensure its free of any burrs, nothing really in there to begin with but I gave it a few turns anyway and cleaned.

B/C gap measures .008"

Endshake is /was .002"- .003" . Almost imperceptible.

Is a S&W armourers manual available anywhere online to download? Is Kunhausens (sp) books about the same thing or contain basically the same info?

Thanks, great info.

 

[dsf]

Question -

Suppose one files the window to fit the oversize hand and the hand subsequently wears. A new oversize hand is had, but it's not quite so "oversize" as the previous?

 

[Nightowl]

Fitting a replacement hand is the hardest thing to do in working on a Smith, at least for me! And the gun should be "in spec" before proceeding. I have found that the frame window does not need to be opened most of the time, unless the gun has had a lot of use and the hand already replaced, probably more than once. As Armorer951 states, the Power hand is way oversize and seldom needs to be used. I have several hands available and just try and error until I get one that works. Sometimes installing a .002 wider hand will fix the issue and not have to do any frame window opening, or ratchet fitting. Sometimes...

 

[Protocall_Design]

Question -

Suppose one files the window to fit the oversize hand and the hand subsequently wears. A new oversize hand is had, but it's not quite so "oversize" as the previous?

First off, don't file on the ratchets if possible to avoid it. This is one place that is super easy to mess up on. If it gets messed up, you'll have to get a new extractor and start over. That's not too bad with the new style, but the older ones can be a pain. The ratchets are soft steel. They are the wear point. The hand wears the ratchets. There is one hand and many ratchets, so each ratchet gets a fraction of the wear each revolution of the cylinder. The hand has to push every ratchet.

There are different oversize hands. The factory has some that will usually fit in the original hand window, but are different thicknesses. For a different thickness, you use a different hand.

The Power Custom ones are all the same thickness, but won't fit in the factory hand window. You have to file the window wider to fit the hand. With that done, you file the nose of the hand back till it fits the ratchets. If you need it wider later on, or file too much, you get a new PC hand and file the nose less.
You have to use a diamond file for any of the hands. They are hardened tool steel. Use a caliper to measure the different hands, or your filing progress. Don't just try to eyeball it.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

I don't know much about hands, and I don't know much about the internal functioning of S&W revolvers, but I had one once, or maybe even twice, that failed to carry up when cocked slowly. Tried the hand-bending procedure described in Brownell's Gunsmith Kinks III, page 276, using a two-pound hammer gently and monitoring with a dial caliper, a thousandth at a time.

I've heard that it doesn't work, and you'll break the hand. It didn't break the hand, and it did work, at least once or twice (different guns).

??

 

[BillBro]

Im not trying to cause any fuss here, everyone has "their" prefered way. This is why I asked specifically about the way S&W says its done, kinda hard to go wrong there. But, there are a few folks here Im going to listen to and PD is among them. Not saying anyone else is wrong per se.

Ive been told about the peening deal but to me this seems temporary at best, and I have a yoke stretcher so understand the concept. Stretching the yoke and peening ratchets are different. Yes both are moving the metal but those parts interactions with other parts is quite different.

I have my m29 at a gunsmith right now and I have already supplied him with a PC oversized hand. Im sure he hasnt begun the work yet so should I try to find a s&w replacement hand and have him start with that instead? I could try to buy a few for comparison sake and keep the others as possible future replacement parts.
The other one needing some attention is my 686 which I was thinking about attempting myself . Now maybe not.

What is the most common cause of this condition? Carry up issues. Is is full power loads? I like full power loads but dont fire them all the time.

 

[Protocall_Design]

I don't understand why this method is considered the norm when it involves permanent modification of the frame and ratchets to address wear that isn't on the hand itself. It seems like insanity. The frame hole gets bigger and the ratchets keep getting smaller.

And it is more difficult to do.

Sometimes factory oversize hands can't be found. Sometimes new extractors can't be found. When no factory parts are available, it's one way to get the job done. The frame hole only gets a few thou. bigger one time, so it's not a big deal. The ratchets will keep getting smaller as long as you use the gun. The PC hands are mostly used on high mileage competition guns. It solves the problem without building a whole new gun.

 

[Protocall_Design]

Peening, done correctly is a viable alternative, especially when the ratchets aren't all alike. When they are all worn equally, it's easier to just put in a wider hand and be done.

There's more than one way to do most jobs. It's good to have choices so you can pick the one that best fits the situation at hand. Sometimes you're better off to just replace the chain AND the sprockets and start over fresh. A lot of revolver smithing is the art of adjusting that which is non adjustable. Not everyone is good at that art.