Weak primer, damp powder?

[sonny]

Was at range today. My last shot in target didn't go. Bullet was stuck in forcing cone, far enuf into bbl so base of SWC hard-cast was about 3/16" forward of the rear end of bbl. Drove it out easily enuf with several taps on aluminum rod. Bullet base was as new. Bullet only showed land-marks, otherwise undamaged. Bevel base was not melted at all.
The H110 and the primer were both ten years old. Had many unburned powder grains in cylinder throat and a whole compressed unburned wad of it in bbl behind the bullet. I would guess either weak primer or "damp" (?) powder. Powder and primers have always been stored in 50-cal ammo box and in air-conditioned home, so is interesting. I don't think I've ever seen this type of failure in many, many yrs of reloading.
22 gr H110, 255 gr hard-cast, Fed cases, tight crimp with Redding Profile Crimper. No sign of bullet moving forward with recoil. Avg speed = 1152 fps. 65 fps max variation over ten rounds fired. (1119-1184 fps). So I'm left with a guess of weak primer or damp powder. Any other suggestions?
This is a real bummer as it leaves me unsure of my ammo.
Sonny

 

[sonny]

Was at range today. My last shot in target didn't go. Bullet was stuck in forcing cone, far enuf into bbl so base of SWC hard-cast was about 3/16" forward of the rear end of bbl. Drove it out easily enuf with several taps on aluminum rod. Bullet base was as new. Bullet only showed land-marks, otherwise undamaged. Bevel base was not melted at all.
The H110 and the primer were both ten years old. Had many unburned powder grains in cylinder throat and a whole compressed unburned wad of it in bbl behind the bullet. I would guess either weak primer or "damp" (?) powder. Powder and primers have always been stored in 50-cal ammo box and in air-conditioned home, so is interesting. I don't think I've ever seen this type of failure in many, many yrs of reloading.
22 gr H110, 255 gr hard-cast, Fed cases, tight crimp with Redding Profile Crimper. No sign of bullet moving forward with recoil. Avg speed = 1152 fps. 65 fps max variation over ten rounds fired. (1119-1184 fps). So I'm left with a guess of weak primer or damp powder. Any other suggestions?
This is a real bummer as it leaves me unsure of my ammo.
Sonny

 

[Bassamatic]

Well, sounds like you know your way around a reloading bench so we can rule out a "light" charge which would be the most likely culprit.

I've used powder and primers way over ten years old so I doubt that age is a factor. If other rounds fired successfully with that powder, that pretty much leaves a bad primer.

It can happen.

 

[Joni_Lynn]

It sounds like a bad primer.

 

[sonny]

A little update on my problem...
I went to the source and called a well-known powder company. I won't name the company as they may not want to be quoted. I learned some stuff. He said my problem is either the primer or a weak crimp or both. Also, and just as important, he said you must use a tight roll-crimp in order to get that powder ignited uniformly. I do have .457 throats (.452 bullets) in this gun, which I thought might be too loose to contain the primer ignition well, but he figured not. He said the primer pressure peak would have been reached before the bullet started to move.
I use a Redding Profile Crimp Die which "provides a quick taper crimp section followed by a uniform, tight roll crimp." Used for more uniform ignition, etc. This specific die is reco'd by Beartooth Technical Guide, and these folks know a lot about handgun shooting.
The powder guy told me that powder does NOT get wet and is likely good for fifty years. These powders are generally of a nitro-cellulose base and thus are basically "plastic."
That leaves the primer. If it is the primer, it did have enough power to push the .452 bullet completely into the barrel so that I could easily open the cylinder.
He said there may be such a thing as a "weak" primer but he's never seen one. Again, we are back to the crimp. I know my crimp is tight, and see no slipping of bullets in the cylinder.
So there you are. Crimp? Maybe. Primer? Probably not.
Darn. And thank you all for your comments.

 

[sonny]

Originally posted by Bassamatic:
Well, sounds like you know your way around a reloading bench so we can rule out a "light" charge which would be the most likely culprit.
QUOTE]

It wasn't a light charge, as no burned powder at all, but lots of fresh powder behind the bullet and in the cylinder throat. Thanks, it has me stymied also.
Sonny

 

[Bruce51]

Ok I think I have your answer. The clue is you said it was your last shot. I believe that your bullet pulled from the case while you were firing the other rounds. The crimp was not sufficient to hold the bullet. Once the bullet was loose proper ignition would not take place. Bruce

Since the bullet was stuck in the forcing cone that tells me that the primer was ok. Do you trim your cases? Case length variations will effect the crimp.

 

[H Richard]

I think Bruce Lee may be on the right track. Crimp can cause this.

As an aside, and remotely related to your problem, I recently loaded up a batch of brand new 44 Specials. I always run the new brass through my trimmer before first loading, as with roll crimp it has an impact on accuracy. Most cases the trimmer didn't remove much, or any brass, or just kissed the rim. I proceeded to load the batch of fifty rounds, (yes, I load my 44's on a single stage press). I casually inspect all the rounds as I move the finished round back to the loading block, and one round had no crimp at all. I measured it, and it was .009 short of the trim length, just enough the crimp shoulder of the die did not touch the case rim.

I haven't fired this round, just left it laying on the shelf as a reminder to measure the brass. I think it would probably shoot, but would strike considerably lower on the target.

 

[Guest]

I also agree with Bruce Lee M; that you're really NOT getting a good roll crimp on all your finished rounds. Especially with ALL my heavy Magnum type loadings I do a separate seating of the bullet and then a good solid roll crimp where it belongs on the particular bullet I am using.

A 65fps spread of velocities could also explain that "this" is what is happening. Were your velocities going up and down or simply getting slower and slower during the your strings? Either way it could be a sign of some of your bullets beginning to pull loose and reduce proper ignition rates.

 

[oldRoger]

As I suspect you know H-110 is considered hard to ignite, hence the usual recommendation for Magnum primers and a hard crimp.
Mysteries do happen to me however; I had a batch of poorly stored reloads which at one point had been wet. After a coupe of squibs with bullets half way down the barrel, I pulled the rest. The powder (Bullseye) was indeed ok; at least it would burn in the open air. I fired the primers individually and some of them popped instead of banged. Taken together with the squibs I assumed damaged primers.
I have also had occasions where a case did not get resized, then even the best crimp would not be tight enough, usually that can cause set back, sort of the opposite of what is one of the suspect causes in your case.

 

[Old 44 Guy]

Sonny; I keep my primers in their original boxes in a cardboard box high above my bench. Never have had a problem. Some of my powder is more than 50 years old & still is good.[Bullseye]A friend long ago kept his powder & primers in 50 Cal. cans & had some of the same troubles you mentioned.

 

[oldRoger]

To echo Dick’s observation, condensation can be a problem in sealed ammunition cans, desiccant packs are recommended by many. If the cans were sealed during periods of low humidity and saw little temp change it might be ok. Desiccant would be cheap insurance. Primers on military ammunition are sealed so not much problem with the intended use for the can.

 

[scooter123]

Guys, I just want to say thank you. I'm not reloading yet but know I will be taking that step in the next year or two. I had no idea that the case crimp was so critical for ignition. It's nice to see a discussion that explains WHY case length and crimping the round properly are explained. It'll help me avoid making mistakes and trying to skip steps because I am now understanding that every step is important.

 

[bob1981]

I sure am glad to hear it was your last shot and not next to last that would have been bad.

 

[Leeroy151]

on a hot day could wax lube affect the primer and cause a squib fire/miss fire?
in an somewhat unrelated area...took out the kid's 243 to site it in. last round hit the bullseye...only i saw it hit the bullseye...not enough recoil to make me lose the visual on the target. the primer blew out and a lot of the gases hit the bolt face and screwed up the ejector. the extractor was OK even though it didn't extract that round. the brass was lodged in the chamber but tapped out easily enough. had to send the bolt to Savage and they fixed it for free even though the years warranty was up.

 

[n4zov]

on a hot day could wax lube affect the primer and cause a squib fire/miss fire?

I think Leeroy151 may have identified your problem. If once ruined almost 500 rounds of .38 Special cast bullet loads when I left them in a car trunk on a hot day. The lube melted and contaminated the powder causing the same kind of problem you described.

 

[sonny]

Originally posted by bob1981:
I sure am glad to hear it was your last shot and not next to last that would have been bad.

I hope that I would have checked it, as I recently saw guy do that when he had no powder in the case.
Thanks to all posters for your kind suggestions. I have checked everything you have talked about; they all seem fine.
One thing that I just found today, by accident. I do have data from one excellent source that suggests a greater powder charge of H-110 than I used. I didn't go that high as I was trying to be careful NOT to blow up an expensive revolver that can be easily damaged by high pressure loads. However, in doing so, I may have created my own problem.

I found this quote today from Hodgdon:
H110 Loads should not be reduced more than 3%. Reduce H110 Loads 3% and work up from there. H110 if reduced too much will cause inconsistent ignition. In some cases it will lodge a bullet in the barrel, causing a hazardous situation (Barrel Obstruction).
This may cause severe personal injury or death to users or bystanders.
DO NOT REDUCE H110 LOADS BY MORE THAN 3%.

I have not paid close attention to this aspect of reloading in the past. In fact, I have some very old NRA data (HANDLOADING -1981) that talks about squib loads and how to prepare them.
In the future, I will pay much closer attention to those specific warnings from the powder manufacturers. Too low a charge can be just as dangerous as too high.
Again, thank you again,
Sonny