Weird. Sideways hold - better group!

[tacotime]

Lamenting a fairly poor 20 yard group hitting well left of the target shooting the J-frame, I got to looking at the barrel and wondered if the barrel was on straight with sights top center. Not exactly sure by looking, thought it might have been installed with the front sight slightly to the shooter's right of center.

So on a whim I turned the gun 90 degrees sideways left and tried a few rounds. Group much improved and right over the target. Did not expect that.

Apparently the different wrist position stops me from a usual down to the left pull, I suppose by tensing up certain tendons. Oddly I found the sight picture easier to use. The sights lined up vertically were somehow intuitively easy to space evenly when seen vertically. Since the the whole left side of the target was now visible, it was easier to position the sights vertically since the usually obscured bottom of the target was now visible.

Ignoring the obvious "thug with a gun held sideways" jokes, have you tried this?

 

[H Richard]

If your groups are consistently low left about 7 o'clock, it may be an indication of a slight "shot anticipation" flinch. Have another person shoot this gun and see what their results are.

 

[gwpercle]

No , I'm not going to emulate the sideways gangsta shooting style , I don't care how good the groups are.
I can find other solutions for a left shooting gun..... a change in grips or hold usually does it.

 

[UncleEd]

Try a "tilt" rather than a full 90 degrees.

If you make a fist and hold arm out straight but relaxed, you'll see that the fist tilts slightly. maybe 10 or 15 degrees.

Mas Ayoob, the gun instructor, found that this tilt does not
detract from using the sights or making good groups. Or so
I remember him writing.

Or just do what gun whiz Jerry Miculek has done with a J-frame.
Shoot it upside down at a target perhaps a hundred yards away.

 

[ContinentalOp]

Try a "tilt" rather than a full 90 degrees.

If you make a fist and hold arm out straight but relaxed, you'll see that the fist tilts slightly. maybe 10 or 15 degrees.

I've found that such a tilt helps when I shoot one-handed.

IIRC, this natural tilt is supposed to result in balanced tension in the tendons, ligaments, and muscles of the forearm.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

If it works better for you, that's how it is.

I'm going to try it next time no one is watching me, which is most of the time. I do not expect it to help, but I'll see what I'll see.

Don't let anyone talk you out of your own experience, except to re-confirm it every once in a while.

 

[Yaworski]

I shoot bullseye and I have been holding my gun canted to the left for decades. It does relieve tension in the forearm and improves scores.

 

[tacotime]

Decades of shooting and I have never seen anyone hold a revolver sideways. Seems weird and I don't like it but if it continues to bring a 4 inch freehand group at 20 yards to a 2 inch group, I'm going to use it!

 

[Big Cholla]

It's a Fact!

I've found that such a tilt helps when I shoot one-handed.

IIRC, this natural tilt is supposed to result in balanced tension in the tendons, ligaments, and muscles of the forearm.

I had a good customer who was a well known Orthopedic Doc. He explained that the natural layout of the human forearm's arm bones, muscle, tendon, nerve layouts lends itself to tightening all the forearm muscles and the 'quietening' of the nerve action in same forearm. He said the maximum effect was obtained with a cant varying from 30 deg. to 45 deg. for some. He also said the 90 deg. cant is just a "Tacti Cool" affectation and only detracted from the maximum obtainable effect. I know he was a darn fine single handed handgun shot. ...........

 

[Wise_A]

I shoot bullseye and I have been holding my gun canted to the left for decades. It does relieve tension in the forearm and improves scores.

Common advice, actually. Usually described as throwing a punch instead of grabbing a throat, or some such thing.

I sometimes do it for iron sights, but mostly not when using a red dot. I usually don't notice any tension in my arm so long as I didn't spend all afternoon killing myself with yard work or something. And so long as I have my shoulder and elbow in the right places.

--

Most shooters, low and 7 is dead on for one of two things. Either they're anticipating recoil (although with a rightie that's normally more 6 or 5). Or it's a case of taking too long on the trigger and trying to force your way through it, which can really throw a shot almost anywhere if your grip is also bad.

However, I believe the ol' shot analysis wheel is only effective as a means of self-examination, and only then for fliers.

If your whole group is off, I would say it's normally a matter of one of the fundamentals.

In this instance, going Thug Life on the grip forced the OP to shoot the gun an entirely different way. They didn't have any kind of experience to reference, and when you can't reference experience, it's harder to repeat bad habits. You have to return to basic fundamentals.

Same thing as getting a new gun. Buy a new gun, shoot amazing the first couple times, and then slowly work your way back down to your old scores.

 

[apollo99]

A few months ago I tried the "thug with a gun" hold, I was with two other retired police officers at the range and we all tried it. We were shocked that at 21' feet we actually were hitting the T-21 target. I think in some situations there may be a call for that type of grip. I now add a few magazines or cylinders in that style to my training. I never in a million years would have thought it could be so effective, You never know until you try it.

 

[UncleEd]

Whether tilting the gun 90 degrees works for some people or not,
I always happily remember an episode of Everybody Loves Raymond.

Ray and his cop brother Robert have been to the movies and back at home Ray pretends to be firing a gun held sideways.

Robert tells him it's silly and doesn't work.

And Ray replies, who cares, it looks cool.

 

[Big Cholla]

I have told this before, but it bears retelling; The origin of the 90 deg. sideways cant hold was in Israel way back when they were first fighting for independence. The Israelis were short of money to equip their army and went for dead cheap firearms of all sorts. One type of the guns they bought were thousands of clapped out-worn out Colt M 1911s left over from WW II in European Countries. Of course many of the new enthusiastic army recruits had no firearms experience. The resultant was there were way too many unintended discharges, injuries and even deaths from these guns with grip safeties and even thumb safeties not in working condition while the recruits were carrying the traditional 'cocked and locked' method. So, the thinkers in the training command came up with a mandated carry of empty chamber, hammer down, full magazine to prevent unintended discharges and the resulting killing by friendly fire. The shooter was to then draw and while bringing the handgun up to the quickest position for the off hand to grasp the slide to jack it to the rear for quickest possible loading of an unloaded but safe handgun. That position of the gun was determined by a lot of experimentation to be that 90 deg. to the inside cant. The first shot was to be immediately fired one handed while still sideways and then the support hand was to join the grip as the M 1911 was brought to the traditional upright aiming position for all subsequent shots. Of course in due time a movie was made of the Israelis in combat shooting in this manner of presentation. That movie scene was made in to a movie "trailer" and distributed in the USA. The thugs in NYC were to first to pickup how 'cool' that presentation was. They adopted en mass. This 'fad' swept across the USA to the result that we are still being subjected to this nonsense in modern day movies and TV shows.

Way back when I started taking Firearms Training classes to become an Instructor, I had an older man instructing that was from England, but had immigrated to a yet-to-become Israel to join the army and the fight. The question came up in class if the thug's sideways shooting presentation was worth mastering. He then told this story. His opinion was if your M 1911 met JMB's original specifications you didn't need to bother. .............

 

[Lostaro]

Go with what puts holes in the center of your target....that's really all that matters.

I hold with a pretty decent cant when shooting 1 handed off-hand. Someone showed me this years ago and it seems to be easier to line up the sights keeping both eyes open...works for me anyway.

 

[Dennis]

Not for me. Been shooting straight up for too many years.

 

[bigggbbruce]

Not for me. Been shooting straight up for too many years.

Same here.

If you have to hold the gun sideways you're not holding it right.

Adjustable sights don't move diagonal...

 

[jaymoore]

Same here.

If you have to hold the gun sideways you're not holding it right.

Adjustable sights don't move diagonal...

Watch smallbore rifle competitors! Many utilize considerable cant to achieve the most stable position. As well as quite a few High Power shooters. They just record both windage and elevation changes in their come ups log book.

 

[smokindog]

Hope I don't bring on too much ridicule and shame but I'm in the camp of "if it works for you, do it". I've played a lot of sports in my life with very "rigid rules" for how things should be done.

Don't get me wrong, I believe you should always learn through the accepted best practices and always look to improve. I'm sure there is a stage of performance for all of these activities that a "roll your own" implementation makes your performance plateau at a less than optimal level but if that level is acceptable, I say go for it.

Life is too short!

 

[OLDSTER]

GANGSTA STYLE

Couldn't resist

 

[Arik]

Hope I don't bring on too much ridicule and shame but I'm in the camp of "if it works for you, do it". I've played a lot of sports in my life with very "rigid rules" for how things should be done.

Don't get me wrong, I believe you should always learn through the accepted best practices and always look to improve. I'm sure there is a stage of performance for all of these activities that a "roll your own" implementation makes your performance plateau at a less than optimal level but if that level is acceptable, I say go for it.

Life is too short!

Couldn't resist

But the real question is. ..is the OP tilting his head as well. If he is then it's technically still straight!! [emoji38]

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