Is the Wells Fargo marking on this gun legitimate?
Butt serial number of the gun is 2848.
Butt serial number of the gun is 2848.
Wells Fargo Schofield
- Thread starter lestert357
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ACORN
Member
If it's yours, I hope it is.
Sure appears to be. Caliber? Congratulations!
Aussie Collector
Member
Looks legit to me.
I've seen two types of stampings and yours is the earlier stamping. Your gun has been cut to 5", correct?
I've seen two types of stampings and yours is the earlier stamping. Your gun has been cut to 5", correct?
OP
Yes, it's cut to 5".
OP
I don't have the gun yet - I will post additional pictures when I receive it next week. Here are all of the additional seller photos. Seller states 5" barrel and that grips match. I like the looks of the gun and the Wells Fargo marking seems to track with the image and verbal information in the SCS&W, but I will admit that my knowledge of Schofields in general, and Wells Fargo Schofields in particular, is somewhat limited…..
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Terry
I don't like it! Send it to me. Once I have it, I'll tell you why I don't like it. It's a great WF &C.
I don't like it! Send it to me. Once I have it, I'll tell you why I don't like it. It's a great WF &C.
Here's one and the same serial number range but without a Wells Fargo marking.
Smith & Wesson First Model Schofield Revolver With Wells Fargo Number
I think your is 100% legitimate. From where did you acquire it?
Smith & Wesson First Model Schofield Revolver With Wells Fargo Number
I think your is 100% legitimate. From where did you acquire it?
OP
Legacy Collectibles in Paoli, PA
Wow, and right in my back yard! About an hour away.
Property Stamp
I looked through my notes and photos of property stamps and found 4 legit examples in your serial number range. 3 have the first type stamp like yours and 1 has the 2nd contract stamp.
The line stamp started to break down beginning with the W. I followed this process as the stamp broke further. So there were a lot of guns in this contract. I love the " couple hundred" estimate. That's way low from my research.
Colts also show broken address stamps but are easily followed since they were stamped in serial number sequence.
The Wells Fargo's were not stamped in serial number sequence so seeing and documenting the gradual breakdown of line stamp only helps to support the large number that were stamped by Wells Fargo.
You can see in my research photos the W starting to break down on a low serial number property stamp. This is NOT due to wear as I have several photos and a breaking down of the F as well. All identical stamps.
Notice also in a close serial number to yours the identical 2 and 8 die stamps.
So now I get to be like other members and say" Yep, it's real"!!
Please post an actual barrel length as measured when you have possession and a muzzle crown photo.
Murph
I looked through my notes and photos of property stamps and found 4 legit examples in your serial number range. 3 have the first type stamp like yours and 1 has the 2nd contract stamp.
The line stamp started to break down beginning with the W. I followed this process as the stamp broke further. So there were a lot of guns in this contract. I love the " couple hundred" estimate. That's way low from my research.
Colts also show broken address stamps but are easily followed since they were stamped in serial number sequence.
The Wells Fargo's were not stamped in serial number sequence so seeing and documenting the gradual breakdown of line stamp only helps to support the large number that were stamped by Wells Fargo.
You can see in my research photos the W starting to break down on a low serial number property stamp. This is NOT due to wear as I have several photos and a breaking down of the F as well. All identical stamps.
Notice also in a close serial number to yours the identical 2 and 8 die stamps.
So now I get to be like other members and say" Yep, it's real"!!
Please post an actual barrel length as measured when you have possession and a muzzle crown photo.
Murph
Attachments
OP
Thanks very much for all of the information. I will post some additional pictures when I receive the gun. Is there any good published reference material on the Schofield Wells Fargo variation? Or is all of that particular information buried deep within the confines of several of our knowledgeable Forum members?
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Book Writing
Book writing for gun collectors is very limited. It's not that there aren't interested collectors out there it's that there aren't enough of them willing to pay more than $5 for research. In my opinion it's primarily due to the free information on the web that has become "the norm".
There is some great news though. International shipping for books is becoming a much cheaper reality which will stimulate more book sales and the writing of new books. My sales have increased significantly and all of the buyers are out of country. If this continues I might take on the Wells Fargo Express subject compiling all of the Express Companies into one study.
Murph
Book writing for gun collectors is very limited. It's not that there aren't interested collectors out there it's that there aren't enough of them willing to pay more than $5 for research. In my opinion it's primarily due to the free information on the web that has become "the norm".
There is some great news though. International shipping for books is becoming a much cheaper reality which will stimulate more book sales and the writing of new books. My sales have increased significantly and all of the buyers are out of country. If this continues I might take on the Wells Fargo Express subject compiling all of the Express Companies into one study.
Murph
OP
Here you go with a few additional photos as well. Actual barrel length appears to be 5 1/16"…..
Authentic
Thanks Terry,
The barrel length is part of the puzzle to prove authenticity as being part of the first contract. The second contract actually measures different from the first. Which is expected. Since these were not cut by the factory.
This is also why it is very difficult to actually manufacture a fake.
Unlike those who would have you believe that there are more fakes out there than real Express guns? The opposite is true by a very large margin.
Those that are altered are actually easily identified.
It would be nice if the collectible world would respect research and reason over yarns and sensationalism but that's asking too much.
Murph
Thanks Terry,
The barrel length is part of the puzzle to prove authenticity as being part of the first contract. The second contract actually measures different from the first. Which is expected. Since these were not cut by the factory.
This is also why it is very difficult to actually manufacture a fake.
Unlike those who would have you believe that there are more fakes out there than real Express guns? The opposite is true by a very large margin.
Those that are altered are actually easily identified.
It would be nice if the collectible world would respect research and reason over yarns and sensationalism but that's asking too much.
Murph
OP
Murph, so barrels on the first contract were cut to 5 1/16", correct?
What is the exact barrel length of the second contract?
What is the exact barrel length of the second contract?
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Cut barrel lengths
Terry,
I know collectors like quick and simple answers to ID collectibles.
Unfortunately, with research a simple answer is often not enough to cover the subject. I have found two different barrel lengths for the first contract and two different lengths for the second contract. I will say this…..NONE of them measure 5" or less.
From a researchers standpoint. I like it a lot. That shows a pattern that suggests both contracts contained roughly the same amount of guns ordered or in this case converted. It also obviously required the Distributor to use two machinists and two lathes to complete the contract in a reasonable amount of time.
We also have to include the American Express Schofields in this research since at that time both Wells Fargo and American Express were purchasing 5" barrel 45cal Schofield revolvers.
American Express examples that I have seen and examined suggest they were involved in only one of the contracts and I suspect it was the first contract only. Since American Express preceded Wells Fargo in using the factory to fill orders and mark guns for them by about 5 years.
So American Express Schofields are actually quite rare and often unmarked as the property stamps are often found removed. Cross referencing early Colt lightnings I have found that they depict the exact same marking on the back strap as was used on the Schofield. A very exciting piece when found having the original express property marking still intact. They are easily proven since they depict identical die stamps used at the same exact time in history. Fortunately, Colt records are available that prove the year of manufacture by serial number and factory records also prove where the gun was shipped. Not unlike the
Baltimore Police Baby Russians, they are found shipped to a specific Major Distributor.
So, back to the barrel cut: having the same cuts also strongly suggests two machinists were assigned using two different lathes to perform the cuts. I can cross reference other research I have performed on modified barrels from major distributors that supports this position. Based on the known or estimated amount of guns altered we then look at how many different barrel lengths are found in that series of cut barrels.
Do you follow me?
Especially both Hartley & Graham and M. Robinson.
It also supports the amount of guns being much higher than the "couple hundred" often found in references.
So at this point in my research I would prefer not posting the contract barrel lengths in lieu of attempted alterations made by some to manufacture a Wells Fargo Schofield. I'd prefer making it as difficult as possible so we keep the value on these historical antiques solid and avoid the negative impact from altered guns.
Your example fits my research perfectly.
Murph
Terry,
I know collectors like quick and simple answers to ID collectibles.
Unfortunately, with research a simple answer is often not enough to cover the subject. I have found two different barrel lengths for the first contract and two different lengths for the second contract. I will say this…..NONE of them measure 5" or less.
From a researchers standpoint. I like it a lot. That shows a pattern that suggests both contracts contained roughly the same amount of guns ordered or in this case converted. It also obviously required the Distributor to use two machinists and two lathes to complete the contract in a reasonable amount of time.
We also have to include the American Express Schofields in this research since at that time both Wells Fargo and American Express were purchasing 5" barrel 45cal Schofield revolvers.
American Express examples that I have seen and examined suggest they were involved in only one of the contracts and I suspect it was the first contract only. Since American Express preceded Wells Fargo in using the factory to fill orders and mark guns for them by about 5 years.
So American Express Schofields are actually quite rare and often unmarked as the property stamps are often found removed. Cross referencing early Colt lightnings I have found that they depict the exact same marking on the back strap as was used on the Schofield. A very exciting piece when found having the original express property marking still intact. They are easily proven since they depict identical die stamps used at the same exact time in history. Fortunately, Colt records are available that prove the year of manufacture by serial number and factory records also prove where the gun was shipped. Not unlike the
Baltimore Police Baby Russians, they are found shipped to a specific Major Distributor.
So, back to the barrel cut: having the same cuts also strongly suggests two machinists were assigned using two different lathes to perform the cuts. I can cross reference other research I have performed on modified barrels from major distributors that supports this position. Based on the known or estimated amount of guns altered we then look at how many different barrel lengths are found in that series of cut barrels.
Do you follow me?
Especially both Hartley & Graham and M. Robinson.
It also supports the amount of guns being much higher than the "couple hundred" often found in references.
So at this point in my research I would prefer not posting the contract barrel lengths in lieu of attempted alterations made by some to manufacture a Wells Fargo Schofield. I'd prefer making it as difficult as possible so we keep the value on these historical antiques solid and avoid the negative impact from altered guns.
Your example fits my research perfectly.
Murph
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