Western 357 Magnum 158 gr. Lubaloy

[ElmerKeith]

Today I was given 23 rounds of what seems to be Western 357 Magnum 158 GR. Lubaloy ammunition. Unfortunately there is no original box left. But some part of the original card board box was glued to a box which formerly held 50 rounds of 38 Spl. Geco ammo and no is the home for the WW-Super 357 Magnum marked cartridges.

Are these Lubaloy cartridges are still in production and if not when was the production stopped?

The cartridges given to me seem to to be in very goot condition. Is there anything wrong with them shooting them in a M 28-2?

 

[s&wchad]

Lubaloy came out in 1922, but the .357 wasn't introduced until the mid-1930's. I believe it's now discontinued, but I know they sold Lubaloy coated lead bullets and shot past 1962. Early .357's used large pistol primers and might be worth saving. All of the .357's have non-corrosive priming and won't hurt your gun. Watch out for squib loads, but it doesn't hurt to try them.

 

[MP22]

Shoot a few and see....wouldn't think it could hurt anything.

 

[jimmyj]

Those cartridges will lead your bore BIG TIME !

 

[Texas Star]

Elmer-

Were the Geco rounds in .38 Special? There is no .35 Special. (Yes, I know that the actual bullet diameter for the .38 is really .357-.358-inch, but they aren't labled that way.)

There is no way to tell how this ammo was stored, so you may get some misfires and pressure variations. The REAL Elmer Keith mentioned that some lots of this .357 ammo loaded in the 1950's seemed to be very high pressure and he had trouble extracting fired cases in some guns. I think the matter was discussed in his book, "Sixguns". I don't have time tonight to look it up, though.

Your M-28 is intended to fire ANY commercially loaded .357 Magnum or .38 Special ammo, assuming that it has been properly stored. With old ammo like that, it's best to be cautious, but it's probably safe, if maybe unreliable.

The bullets do tend to leave lead deposits in the barrel that are hard to clean out and bullet performance may not be what you need for protection from a wounded wild boar. (Wildschwein.) I wouldn't say that it's ideal for even roebuck, either. If you carry the .357 as a backup gun on hunts, I'd use newer ammo with jacketed softpoint or hollowpoint bullets, if legal in Germany.

I have seen a photo in a book of a German hunter carrying a M-28 S&W with six-inch barrel as he followed up wounded game. So I guess it's legal there to finish off injured animals with a handgun? Can you hunt with one? Is it legal to defend yourself from criminal attack? I understand that many Euro countries don't even allow the very basic right of self defense! I hope for your sake that Germany isn't one of them.

It is interesting to learn that you have an S&W .357. I have seen issues of, DWJ and another German gun magazine with ads for S&W products, so I knew they were sold there.

Welcome to this board.

 

[ElmerKeith]

Thank you for all these informations.

Yes,it was 38 Special not 35. Took the wrong zypher.
I always thought that copper plating prevents from leading the barrel. So I will keep these bullets for historical reasons and will not fire them in my 28-2.

I bought this gun a few years ago complete with box and tools and papers for 275 Euros. It has the PC-panels on it.

In Germany it is unlegal to hunt with handguns. It's only legal to make the final shot at wounded or obviously sick animals with a handgun. Some of my hunting companions who have their own hunting area rented sometimes are called from the police even by nighttime to kill one of the roes or fallow deers which are insured in a car acccident because the German policeofficers have to report every shot fired with their gun on duty. The other reason is that the hunters do normally take care of the carcass of the dead game animal.

Defending yourself from criminal attack is legal but only under certain circuimstances. For instances within your home or on your ground. Normally it is not allowed to carry a gun without a special permit but these permits are as rare as running into Elvis Presley at your local shopping mal. There are other countries in Europe where it's easier to get such a permit like Austria or the Czech Republic even the latter one was a communist country once.

Interesting for you may be a look at our guns sale platform on the internet: eGun - Der Marktplatz für Jäger, Schützen und Angler

There you may search for "Highway" or "Patrolman" or "28" or "27" and so on.

Especially the prices of the guns will astonish you. M 19 with 2 1/2" bbl. are not as expensive as in the U.S. Unfortunately almost all of them are no longer in original conditition as they bear the German or other European proofmarks. But overall condition is very good in average as these guns are not longe allowed to target shooters who take shooting as pure sports and do not hunt with them as a back up gun or for making the final shot at wounded game animals.

 

[bigmoose]

Jimmyj is right. These will lead your bore horrendously. The Lubaloy coating is not a copper jacket and may not even be any kind of copper plating. You can flake it off with your fingernail. The rounds are just too hot for these basically "lead bullets". After seeing the results first hand, I pulled the rest of the bullets and reloaded them with jacketed Hornady hollowpoints.

 

[Cerberus62]

Thank you for all these informations.

Yes,it was 38 Special not 35. Took the wrong zypher.
I always thought that copper plating prevents from leading the barrel. So I will keep these bullets for historical reasons and will not fire them in my 28-2.

I bought this gun a few years ago complete with box and tools and papers for 275 Euros. It has the PC-panels on it.

In Germany it is unlegal to hunt with handguns. It's only legal to make the final shot at wounded or obviously sick animals with a handgun. Some of my hunting companions who have their own hunting area rented sometimes are called from the police even by nighttime to kill one of the roes or fallow deers which are insured in a car acccident because the German policeofficers have to report every shot fired with their gun on duty. The other reason is that the hunters do normally take care of the carcass of the dead game animal.

Defending yourself from criminal attack is legal but only under certain circuimstances. For instances within your home or on your ground. Normally it is not allowed to carry a gun without a special permit but these permits are as rare as running into Elvis Presley at your local shopping mal. There are other countries in Europe where it's easier to get such a permit like Austria or the Czech Republic even the latter one was a communist country once.

Interesting for you may be a look at our guns sale platform on the internet: eGun - Der Marktplatz für Jäger, Schützen und Angler

There you may search for "Highway" or "Patrolman" or "28" or "27" and so on.

Especially the prices of the guns will astonish you. M 19 with 2 1/2" bbl. are not as expensive as in the U.S. Unfortunately almost all of them are no longer in original conditition as they bear the German or other European proofmarks. But overall condition is very good in average as these guns are not longe allowed to target shooters who take shooting as pure sports and do not hunt with them as a back up gun or for making the final shot at wounded game animals.

Danke for your very informative post. It was interesting on several levels, particularly the auction site. I like to see how many differences there are in the European markets and was surprised at the similarities.

Since you are going to save this vintage ammunition and you have your gun with the box and all the accessories you may want to pose them all together for some "gun porn" photos. That is classic ammo made at the same times as, and intended for, guns like your M-28.

Gute Aufnahmen

 

[OFT II]

Those cartridges will lead your bore BIG TIME !

Jimmy is right. We used to call that load "the leadalot" round.

 

[PuertoRican]

I have a box of these puppys. Should I not fire them in my 586?

 

[David LaPell]

You can fire them in your 586 but be ready to scrub out the bore afterwards. Those .357's were one of the big reasons lead bullets were given such a rotten reputation for leading no matter what. Really soft bullets at really high velocity and the inside of the bore looked like one big smear. The later bullets like the old 158 grain copper jacketed SWC took care of the problem but the stigma against all lead bullets continues to this day. Its one of the reasons why guys who cast their own bullets do what we do and why so many of us do, we can tailor our bullets to the gun and the load to prevent leading. Something the ammunition companies should have done back then.

 

[Cerberus62]

I have a box of these puppys. Should I not fire them in my 586?

If it's a full box I wouldn't shoot it. The ammo is old enough and the box is in such good condition it might be worth more to a collector than to you as shooting ammo.

Other than that, there is no reason not to shoot it. Winchester's Luballoy was a flash copper plating to reduce leading. Not thick like a copper jacket or the newer plated bullets, but just like the flash plating on .22's.

It may or may not lead your barrel, but so what? Shoot a few jacketed rounds through it when your done and goodbye leading.

Personally, I would save them just for the cool factor of the old box and old school ammo technology.

 

[smith17]

EK:
If those Westerns have a large primer, they would be worth saving. I have only seen one round of pre-war Western .357 Magnum ammo that had a large primer. If anyone else has any, I would love to see pics.
Ed

 

[Texas Star]

If it's a full box I wouldn't shoot it. The ammo is old enough and the box is in such good condition it might be worth more to a collector than to you as shooting ammo.

Other than that, there is no reason not to shoot it. Winchester's Luballoy was a flash copper plating to reduce leading. Not thick like a copper jacket or the newer plated bullets, but just like the flash plating on .22's.

It may or may not lead your barrel, but so what? Shoot a few jacketed rounds through it when your done and goodbye leading.

Personally, I would save them just for the cool factor of the old box and old school ammo technology.

Well, if you do that, don't fire many if they lead much. The leading will raise pressures if you then fire jacketed ammo to clean it out. I've done this, but not with heavy leading present, and in general, it may not be a terribly safe practice.

I agree that the ammo may be collectible, at least in the USA.

 

[Texas Star]

I have a box of these puppys. Should I not fire them in my 586?

Don't you think they'll lead the bore of your gun, as with any other .357?

They are safe to fire, pressure-wise, and the L-frame .357's are proofed for all commercial rounds. Even the K-frame guns are proofed for any normal .357 ammo, although the hot 125 grain and lighter bullets eventually cause more wear if fired a lot.

If bore leading occurs, it raises pressures that can crack the flat thinner portion of the M-19, M-66, etc. barrels. Your gun has no thinner portion at the bottom, and was specifically intended to endure better with full magnum loads.

But barrel leading doesn't care which model you have. Keep it cleaned out or just don't fire ammo that is known to lead barrels.

 

[ElmerKeith]

I have a box of these puppys. Should I not fire them in my 586?

Exactly this part of the box you show as "upside" on the photo was cut off the original box and glued to the Geco-Box. Would you do me the favor and make a photo of the "real" top of the box and it's content and post it here? That would be very nice of you. Thank you.

I forget to tell about the hollow point bullets for handguns in Germany.
At the beginning of the 70s they were banned for more than 20 years because they were used by the terrorists of the RAF (not Royal Airforce but Rote Armee Fraktion translated Red Army Fraction). Even the possession of the bullets itself was out of law not to mention the complete cartridge.

 

[ElmerKeith]

Yesterday I read in Timothy J. Mullin's great book on the 357 Magnum "Magnum - the 357 Magnum phenomenon" about his "day on the range in 1935". He obviously used lubaloy ammo as well as a RegMag as a time machine to go back in the 1930s.

But no word about the cleaning session after visiting the shooting range.

If Mr. Mulligan is a member of this wonderful forum, please would he give us some informations about fouling of old powder and the leading of the barrel of the 357 Magnum?

 

[ddixie884]

Those Western Luballoy .357s will lead. They are also quite hot, and will deliver a lot of velocity and kinetic energy. If you fire them , be sure to use hearing protection.

 

[jscott]

Personal experience: In 1974, Detroit PD prohibited HP's so the Western 158 gr Luballoy round was commonly used in privately owned .357's. A police shooting from a distance of 2-3 feet using a 4 inch revolver resulted in that round passing completely through a subject wearing heavy winter clothing, with no deformation. Luckily it was a supported GSW and there were no citizens standing behind the subject. It might be criminally irresponsible to use that round today.

 

[Douglas Huizenga]

Western X 38 special lubaloy coated.

I do have a full box and the box is in good condition from 1965.The box even has a price tag on it. Thanks to this forum I will not use them in my chiefs special also from 1965 because of the leading problem. No sense ruining a like new pistol.

P.S. I have a box of Remington 38 spec Police Service 158 grain clean bore priming also from 1965. Should I use them or save them? Every one has convinced me to head to my local gun store and get new ammo if I fire the chiefs special.
Thank you
Doug