What .38/.357 should I be looking for?

[Wheelgunner840]

Howdy Folks,
I am not sure if this question is in the right sub-forum, but here goes.

The only DA/SA .38 special revolvers that I own are snubbies. The longer barreled gun (Ruger GP-100)has a 4" bbl. and is a .357 mag. I also have several other .357 mags, all snubs. I do not currently own a 6" (or longer) barreled .38 special or .357 magnum revolver.

I would like to have a very accurate target revolver with a bbl. at least 6" long that will be shot primarily with .38 special handloads. My question is, should I be looking for a .38 special, or stick with a .357? I want to use this gun strictly for accurate target shooting utilizing the .38 special cartridge. Would a revolver chambered for .38 special (not .357 mag.) be more accurate with the shorter cartridge?

What model is known as being the most accurate? I was thinking on a model 27. If there is no real difference in accuracy when firing .38 specials from a .357 magnum firearm, an N-Frame .357 sounds like it would be a nice addition to the collection.

I would think that a gun chambered specifically for the .38 special ctg. would be more accurate though. My reasoning is that the chambers of the .357 magnum would have the ring that is cut where the case mouth ends in the chamber (where the chamber diameter reduces slightly) approxiamately 1/8" ahead of the end of the case mouth of a chambered .38 special.

Not only would there be a slightly longer bullet jump from the case to the forcing cone in the longer .357 mag cylinder, but the .38 special bullet would encounter this chamber ring after it starts from the case. A true .38 special would have this reduction ring positioned right at the case mouth.

If there is an advantage to shooting .38s out of a revolver chambered for .38s only, what model S&W is the most accurate target pistol? If not, and a .357 magnum is best, what model should I be looking for. Note, While I am not a fan of .357 magnum K-Frames, a K-frame chambered in .38 special ala the model 14 (K-38 Masterpiece) sounds interesting.

I think an L-frame might fit the bill. I have a 686 snub that is magnificent, but it is not a target gun with that short barrel. Maybe a 586 with a 6" bbl.

Thanks,
WG840

 

[Wheelgunner840]

Howdy Folks,
I am not sure if this question is in the right sub-forum, but here goes.

The only DA/SA .38 special revolvers that I own are snubbies. The longer barreled gun (Ruger GP-100)has a 4" bbl. and is a .357 mag. I also have several other .357 mags, all snubs. I do not currently own a 6" (or longer) barreled .38 special or .357 magnum revolver.

I would like to have a very accurate target revolver with a bbl. at least 6" long that will be shot primarily with .38 special handloads. My question is, should I be looking for a .38 special, or stick with a .357? I want to use this gun strictly for accurate target shooting utilizing the .38 special cartridge. Would a revolver chambered for .38 special (not .357 mag.) be more accurate with the shorter cartridge?

What model is known as being the most accurate? I was thinking on a model 27. If there is no real difference in accuracy when firing .38 specials from a .357 magnum firearm, an N-Frame .357 sounds like it would be a nice addition to the collection.

I would think that a gun chambered specifically for the .38 special ctg. would be more accurate though. My reasoning is that the chambers of the .357 magnum would have the ring that is cut where the case mouth ends in the chamber (where the chamber diameter reduces slightly) approxiamately 1/8" ahead of the end of the case mouth of a chambered .38 special.

Not only would there be a slightly longer bullet jump from the case to the forcing cone in the longer .357 mag cylinder, but the .38 special bullet would encounter this chamber ring after it starts from the case. A true .38 special would have this reduction ring positioned right at the case mouth.

If there is an advantage to shooting .38s out of a revolver chambered for .38s only, what model S&W is the most accurate target pistol? If not, and a .357 magnum is best, what model should I be looking for. Note, While I am not a fan of .357 magnum K-Frames, a K-frame chambered in .38 special ala the model 14 (K-38 Masterpiece) sounds interesting.

I think an L-frame might fit the bill. I have a 686 snub that is magnificent, but it is not a target gun with that short barrel. Maybe a 586 with a 6" bbl.

Thanks,
WG840

 

[ezb57]

You will love the L frames.

 

[canoesota]

You mean something like this!

 

[RonS]

Colt and S&W both made outstanding .38 special target revolvers. The S&W model 14 and the Colt Officers Model Match would fill your bill to a T. I highly recommend the Colt if you can find one, they have the action of a Python without quite the insane price. If you want a new gun then the new S&W model 14 classic has just been introduced. If you want new and less expensive the 686 .357 is a great gun.

I won't say anything about any little detrimental features that new revolvers come with, it isn't polite to talk about the rotting elephant corpse in the corner of the room.

 

[lev83]

S&W 586.

 

[alphabrace]

Great question Wheelgunner, I was wondering the same thing also. Waiting on response concerning the shorter length to cone on the 38 vs the 38/357 question you posed.

 

[stevieboy]

The "longer bullet jump" issue seems to be one of those urban legends that pop up from time to time on this and other forums. I don't believe there is any evidence that accuracy diminishes shooting 38s from a 357. I presently own two 357s (686 6" and 66 4") and I fire 38s from them about 90% of the time. They're both far, far more accurate than I can be.

As far as choices, the range of possibilities is almost infinite. If you want a heavier gun, there are N frame 357s like the 27, 28, and 627. There are fully lugged guns like the 686 and 586. Older half-lugged models like the 19 and 66. And, those are just the 357s. Start adding the 38s, including models like the 14, and the list grows exponentially.

Before buying, I'd think long and hard about what I really want. If you're only interesting in shooting 38s, then a 14 would be a superb choice. If you want to shoot 357s occasionally then, perhaps a 19 or a 66 would suit you. And, if you want to fire a steady diet of the heavy stuff, then look at the 586/686 or the 27/28 line. Consider also your own physical qualities. Do you feel more comfortable firing a big gun? Then, N-frames might be perfect. Are your hands relatively small? Then, perhaps, a K frame.

Have fun looking and buying!

 

[Wheelgunner840]

Thanks for the replies thus far.

canoesota. Very nice picture. 586?

stevieboy,
I have very large hands, so the N-frame is not a problem. I have handled a model 27 in a local gunshop (I feel it was overpriced at $650, although it was in great shape), and it was comfortable in the hand.

Like most here, My Ruger .357 (GP-100) is super accurate with .38 special fodder as well as with full house .357 mags. For my shooting skills (which are very good, but far from expert), there most likely would not be much of a noticable difference in the accuracy of .38 specials shot out of a gun chambered specifically for that cartridge VS being shot out of a .357 magnum.

I mostly direct the accuracy question to those of you who are bullseye match shooters, and shoot "expert". If you say there is no noticiable accuracy loss shooting .38 specials out of a gun chambered for the .357 magnum, then I would probably opt for a model 27 if I found a good deal.

I would prefer a half lug to a full lug, and as far as I know, the L-frames all have a full lug. I also know that many here have an ongoing love affair with the K-Frames, so this might sound blasphemous. I am not a fan of K-frame .357s.

It looks like the choices have been narrowed down to:
Model 27, 28
or
Model 14 (K-38 Masterpiece)

Now don't go spitting coffee on your keyboard here, but I may be open to something other than a S&W.

The Colt mentioned above also piqued my interest.

Thanks again for the advice folks.

WG840

 

[Speedo2]

Darned good question, WG. Of course, it depends on many factors, but bullet jump (in my opinion) isn't one of them unless you're going to be multi-tasking with the gun and switching back & forth between 38's and 357's a lot. For me, the choice would come down to either a model-14 or a model-586. If I'm allowed to compete with optical sights, then its going to be done with a long barreled M-586 with a big-assed red dot on it. If optics aren't permitted, then I'm going with a standard old, comfortable, well balance, smooth-as-silk M-14.
I've tried several 38/357 revolvers for paper-target accuracy, including Outdoorsmen, M-27's, M-28's, M-19's,the above and their SS counterparts, and for me the M-14 and M-586 have been the most satisfying. That said, the really serious (and good) shooters at my club will blow my doors off with their M-52's, and/or full-race, bull-barreled (4"), Bomar-sighted, tricked-out M-10's. I know; it's apples and oranges, but maybe worth considering. -S2

 

[johnfly45]

I own a few .38 and .357's (also a 625) that I use for my primary sports, practical pistol - USPSA, IDPA, and ICORE. I also shoot in a winter Bullseye league and last year switched from a scoped Ruger Mark II to a stock Model 17 to better practice my iron-sighted revolver skills. Enjoyed it so much that I picked up a 4 screw K-38 and am shooting it with wadcutters in addition to the Model 17 this year. I really, really like this gun and it lives up to the reputation of K-38' for smoothness and accuracy - I shoot it double action for timed and rapid (at least partly as practice for the double action shooting that I need for my other sports). One other factor that is important to me is the nice partridge sight, I shoot much more accurately with those than with a ramp front sight. FWIW, I'm not in the Expert class, will shoot in the 250 range on a good night. Good luck with your selection!

 

[Ron H.]

Sir, it sounds like you're looking for a .38/44 Outdoorsman: 6-1/2-inch barrel, accuracy with .38s, adjustable sight, traditional ejector shroud, N-frame for big hands, plus "cool factor" out the wazoo. The only downside is cost, but if you're considering a Model 27, you're already in the ballpark.

A little poking around over on the 1896-1961 board should turn up plenty of info on the old Outdoorsman.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

 

[canoesota]

canoesota. Very nice picture. 586?

Yes, its a 586-1 with a 6" barrel.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

The "bullet jump" issue really has little to do with best accuracy. What is a significant issue for best accuracy is the cylinder diameter and concentricity in the forward chamer areas, the bore diameter at the rear of the barrel where the bullet enters, the actual bore diameter (and consistency in diameter), and muzzle crown.

Many production revolvers will have oversized chambers, when compared to the bore diameter. Back in the 70's I can recall two things: (1) gunsmiths who specialized in accurizing work on revolvers expended a great deal of effort toward reaming chambers and forcing cones to assure absolute concentricity and matching diameters; (2) top-notch shooters being very selective of the production guns they bought, using micrometers and other devices to check diameters and concentricity before they purchased a piece.

Most target shooting is done with lead bullets, typically soft lead swaged wadcutters. While industry standards for the .38/.357 provide a bullet diameter of .358, this doesn't mean that every revolver will handle that standard diameter equally.

During production, every tool wears slightly every time it is used. Manufacturing tolerances are established by the manufacturer (and vary considerably). Acceptable diameter of the cylinders forward of the cartridge case might vary from, say, .357 to .362. In such a case, the chambering reamer tool might start out cutting a .362 diameter, and be permitted to remain in service until it is cutting a .357 diameter. The forcing cone, where the bullet enters the barrel, might have a tolerance from, say .360 to .365, and the tools used would also wear correspondingly.

All bullets, but more especially lead bullets, expand and "slump" slightly when kicked in the butt by the force of expanding gases inside the cartridge case. So, a .358 slug might leave the cartridge case at .3585 and enter the forward part of the chamber at more or less the diameter encountered there. The bullet might well continue expanding to the point permitted by the cylinder dimension. Transitioning in to the forcing cone at the rear of the barrel, the bullet might encounter a diameter greater or lesser than its own diameter at that point. If larger, the bullet is likely to continue expansion to the limits of the forcing cone. If lesser, the bullet will be swaged down. Passing into the rifled bore, the bullet will once again be subjected to changes based upon the actual diameters of the lands and grooves (also made to manufacturer's tolerances), which might be anywhere from about .348-.352 at the lands, and anywhere from about .355 to about .360 at the grooves.

Also, keep in mind that these changes might all be different in each of the revolver's chambers, so the results can be slightly different every time the revolver is fired.

All of this changes the bullet significantly. Metal within the bullet's structure can be forced inward, outward, rearward, and forward, and this can occur several times before the bullet leaves the muzzle.

Then the crown of the muzzle can have further effects. If the crown is not perfectly perpendicular to the axis of the bore, as the bullet departs there can be tiny (but significant) irregularities in the way the expanding powder gases escape from the bore around the base of the bullet. Significant forces can occur which can cause the bullet to tip slightly, resulting in an irregular "wobble" (which may or may not be overcome by the gyroscopic effect of the revolution of the bullet imparted by the rifling). Also, any tiny imperfections in the machining of the muzzle crown can cause such adverse effects in the bullet's flight.

All of these factors were much more in play two decades ago. All manufacturing was done on machines operated by skilled machinists, allowing a human factor to influence each and every tool set-up, operation, and tool change.

Now, S&W as well as most other makers utilize CNC machinery, driven by a computer program, with every operation monitored and gauged by a laser measuring device as the operation is underway. Tool wear itself is constantly monitored, rather than awaiting the results of each tool's cut. Today's manufacturing tolerances are significantly better than anything available only a few years ago, and what is coming out of the factories today exceeds, in many cases, any level of quality available from custom gunsmiths who used to do the accurizing work on revolvers.

The major factors to consider now are the diameters and concentricity of the key areas of cylinder, forcing cone, bore. The more closely matched these areas are the greater likelihood of having a piece capable of exceptional accuracy.

Of course, few dealers are not going to look kindly upon you coming in to examine a revolver and start applying micrometers, cylindrical run-out gauges, etc. So, your best approach might be to purchase a new unmodified revolver, leaving it completely unfired until you get it to a gunsmith knowledgeable and experienced in addressing these issues. Measurements can be made, minor adjustments applied to bring everything into the same ballpark, so to speak, then you're ready to start shooting with a little greater confidence in your equipment.

Also, cast bullets (which are not nearly as inherently consistent or accurate as swaged) might result in some improvement in some applications. My old Model 19 competition piece always performed better with .360 diameter bullets, left unsized during the lubrication process, than with .357 or .358 (significantly better groups when fired from a machine rest at 50 yards). At one time I was actually considering tooling up to swage my own bullets; but the differences in a machine rest are far greater than those involved in actual firing (sight picture, trigger control, breathing, etc).

Which .38/.357 to choose? The best one you can afford that has grip and frame dimensions that you can comfortably handle and an action type that feels best to you. The action can always be tuned as necessary, but even that is best left alone until the revolver has been fired several hundred times, at which point the pistolsmith can do any necessary work after initial break-in has helped identify those areas worthy of attention.

Caliber? The only major difference will be in potential resale value. You won't get a new .38 Model 14 much cheaper than a new Model 19 or Model 586, but if you ever decide to sell it the .38 Special chambering will dictate a lesser resale value.

 

[Wheelgunner840]

LGL,
Thank you for taking the time to write that very concise and informative response. I do believe that if one considers all of the external forces applied to a bullet through it's journey from case mouth to muzzle crown. the extra 1/8" of travel in the chamber(s) at the very beginning of the voyage would be less likely to have the greatest (or even significant) affect on accuracy.

I was aware of manufacturers variable tolerances due to tool wear, but I did learn quite a bit about the specific dimensions of which I was unaware. Being that the variable cut dimensions occur at the chambers (which could be different in and of themselves in each individual chamber), the forcing cone, the rifling, and the crown, the combinations possible would be too numerous to reasonably count. It is easy to understand how some chambers will shoot more consistantly than others with the forces being applied to the bullet varying to some degree.

When you say "newly manufactured" guns, you mention "over the last two years". CNC machining has been around much longer than that. Are you suggesting major improvements have been made in CNC machining over the last two years? In either case, I will be looking for a pre-lock design. I do believe that CNC was being utilized prior to the lock appearing. I could be wrong. Either way, I will not buy a new S&W as long as they are still putting that foolish lock on it.

As far as what model to buy, from your post, you have pretty much solidified my original thought of going with a .357 with at least a 6" bbl. Certain .38 options are still on the table though. Now, the search is on for a pre-lock (possibly CNC machined, which is not a high priority, as I am not going to any national matches in the near future!), 38/44 outdoorsman, Model 27, Model 14 K-38 masterpiece, or maybe another 586/686 also with a 6" or longer bbl.

Again, great information, and thank you for taking the time to write all of that info down.

WG840

 

[LoboGunLeather]

WG: I mis-spoke when I said "last two years"; I meant to say "last few years", and indeed CNC machining has been in use for the past couple of decades.

I remember reading an article about Smith & Wesson's changeover to CNC, perhaps 20 years ago. Much of the hand-fitting that used to be required was eliminated, and parts interchangeability became pretty much absolute due to the improvements in manufacturing tolerances.

I would think that any S&W product manufactured since that time would be far more uniform in tolerances than before. However, as pointed out, the tolerances can still vary widely between chamber, forcing cone, bore, etc., so improvements can certainly be made by knowledgeable and skilled pistolsmiths.

Bullet manufacturing technologies have also advanced considerably over the past couple of decades. Selection of a swaged and copper-plated bullet, or current jacketed bullets, might easily result in far better performance in many handguns. Cast bullets will always be at the second-shelf level for premium accuracy; they simply cannot be made to match the performance of modern factory-produced projectiles.

I agree that S&W's decision (caving in to pressure by Mr. Clinton a few years ago) to incorporate locks in their revolvers has been a negative development. I would not personally want to own any of the current stuff.

With used handguns it is always "luck of the draw" when buying one. But so long as the timing and lock-up are correct, and no stupid modifications have been made to the piece, a good pistolsmith should be able to make improvements to enhance performance.

And the better handguns, just as they leave the factory, are almost always more accurate than the people shooting them will ever be.

Good luck.

 

[celllman]

Just wondering, wg, are you free hand shooting or bench resting? Do you plan to scope the handgun or go with iron? If bench resting and/or scoping I would look at a longer barrel than 6".....jmho

 

[Bullseye Smith]

Originally posted by Wheelgunner840:
Howdy Folks,
I am not sure if this question is in the right sub-forum, but here goes.

The only DA/SA .38 special revolvers that I own are snubbies. The longer barreled gun (Ruger GP-100)has a 4" bbl. and is a .357 mag. I also have several other .357 mags, all snubs. I do not currently own a 6" (or longer) barreled .38 special or .357 magnum revolver.

I would like to have a very accurate target revolver with a bbl. at least 6" long that will be shot primarily with .38 special handloads. My question is, should I be looking for a .38 special, or stick with a .357? I want to use this gun strictly for accurate target shooting utilizing the .38 special cartridge. Would a revolver chambered for .38 special (not .357 mag.) be more accurate with the shorter cartridge?

What model is known as being the most accurate? I was thinking on a model 27. If there is no real difference in accuracy when firing .38 specials from a .357 magnum firearm, an N-Frame .357 sounds like it would be a nice addition to the collection.

I would think that a gun chambered specifically for the .38 special ctg. would be more accurate though. My reasoning is that the chambers of the .357 magnum would have the ring that is cut where the case mouth ends in the chamber (where the chamber diameter reduces slightly) approxiamately 1/8" ahead of the end of the case mouth of a chambered .38 special.

Not only would there be a slightly longer bullet jump from the case to the forcing cone in the longer .357 mag cylinder, but the .38 special bullet would encounter this chamber ring after it starts from the case. A true .38 special would have this reduction ring positioned right at the case mouth.

If there is an advantage to shooting .38s out of a revolver chambered for .38s only, what model S&W is the most accurate target pistol? If not, and a .357 magnum is best, what model should I be looking for. Note, While I am not a fan of .357 magnum K-Frames, a K-frame chambered in .38 special ala the model 14 (K-38 Masterpiece) sounds interesting.

I think an L-frame might fit the bill. I have a 686 snub that is magnificent, but it is not a target gun with that short barrel. Maybe a 586 with a 6" bbl.

Thanks,
WG840

686 with "POWER PORT"

 

[kennyb]

i think you will find a 6"686 is moderately priced and just a surperb gun...the 6"python,while pricey is a great gun and much sought after!

 

[Wheelgunner840]

Originally posted by celllman:
Just wondering, wg, are you free hand shooting or bench resting? Do you plan to scope the handgun or go with iron? If bench resting and/or scoping I would look at a longer barrel than 6".....jmho

Howdy celllman, welcome to the forum.

To answer your question(s), I plan on using this revolver for paper punching. I plan on leaving it with adjustable target sights, and it will be shot off hand, not from a bench. My main interest is twofold. I would really like a well made classic S&W with a bbl. longer than 4". I will be using it for instructing new shooters, and for my own personal use as a gun that I can rip a ragged 1" hole in the paper with at 50'

Basically, I just do not own a .38/.357 S&W with a barrel longer than 2" and I think the collection really needs one. As I said in an earlier post here, I am not a fan of K-Frame .357magnums. The K-38 masterpiece, or the 38-44 Outdoorsman would be OK if I could find one in good shape and didn't have to sell my truck to afford it!

Purely a tack driving target pistol. That's what I am looking for.

WG840