What .38 was my Dad issued in Vietnam?

[gfors]

My father passed away 2 weeks ago. I've been combing through his memorabilia, and I came across a photo of him, with an A1E, at Bien Hoa AFB. He has an M16 in his hand and an S&W on his hip.
I'm putting this post in this forum (1961-80) because my dad was stationed at Bien Hoa from 64-65. I suspect that the gun in question might be older. Mods, please move this thread, if it is more appropriate in another sub-forum.
Does anyone have a reasonable guess as to what he was carrying on his hip? Why weren't he and his flying buddies issued 1911's? I'm thinking there was no disputing .45 vs .38 in the lethality dept. Quicker reloads and larger capacity also favor the 1911. He wanted more capacity; so, he bought a BHP. The Browning was stolen from his hotel, before he ever got to the base. He ended up carrying the .38. Why did the AF choose revos? Was it a training issue? Reliability? Scared of "cocked and locked"?
I hope someone can shed some light on the side arm situation of those times.
Here are some pics of my dad, his ribbons, and some patches. He was awarded a Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Medal (bottom row, second from left), but he could remember few details about the gun he carried. Probably, had his "head in the clouds", as his dad often said.

 

[Narragansett]

My father passed away 2 weeks ago. I've been combing through his memorabilia, and I came across a photo of him, with an A1E, at Bien Hoa AFB. He has an M16 in his hand and an S&W on his hip.
I'm putting this post in this forum (1961-80) because my dad was stationed at Bien Hoa from 64-65. I suspect that the gun in question might be older. Mods, please move this thread, if it is more appropriate in another sub-forum.
Does anyone have a reasonable guess as to what he was carrying on his hip? Why weren't he and his flying buddies issued 1911's? I'm thinking there was no disputing .45 vs .38 in the lethality dept. Quicker reloads and larger capacity also favor the 1911. He wanted more capacity; so, he bought a BHP. The Browning was stolen from his hotel, before he ever got to the base. He ended up carrying the .38. Why did the AF choose revos? Was it a training issue? Reliability? Scared of "cocked and locked"?
I hope someone can shed some light on the side arm situation of those times.
Here are some pics of my dad, his ribbons, and some patches. He was awarded a Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Medal (bottom row, second from left), but he could remember few details about the gun he carried. Probably, had his "head in the clouds", as his dad often said.

Nice post! I might guess it would be a model 10, 38 cal

 

[Bumpus13]

Wasn't it the Air Force that issued Model 15's?

If memory serves, I believe it was.

 

[SLT223]

Thank you for sharing your photos and story. Sorry for your loss. The Airforce contracted Model 15's...4" adjustable rear sight .38 Special.

 

[triaxle]

The grip looks like a model 15.

 

[ACORN]

Sorry for your loss. Your dad was a good looking guy. I'm guessing as already posted a 15.

 

[junglefighter]

The few AF that I talked to in country who carried a 4" bbl. revolver that was issued carried a S&W M15. As to "cocked & locked",1911's were carried in Cond.3,hammer down on empty chamber.

 

[CheyenneBodie]

Probably a M-15 Combat Masterpiece. There may have been some older M-10s laying about the armory. Great pictures and very impressive rack of ribbons with the Silver Star being at the top. Love USAF humor with the A1E Skyraider patch "Crater Creator" LOL. The other picture with him as a Colonel next to the F16 -- must have been quite a difference between the A1E Skyraider and a F16 "viper" -- like a Model-T Ford to a Formula 1 race car.

 

[H Richard]

I know the USAF had Mod 15's in 59-63, but mainly the Air Police. I think pilots were still issued Mod 10's, but could carry whatever they wanted if they furnished it.

 

[OLDSTER]

Wasn't it the Air Force that issued Model 15's?

If memory serves, I believe it was.

Yes: Model 15's. My cousin flew B-52s over N. Vietnam, and has several photos in his album of him "ready to go" with his 15 ( 15-2 or 15-3) in a shoulder rig.

 

[kwill1911]

The Model 15 became the standard sidearm for the USAF in the early 1960s. If you do a search you can find lots of threads with pictures.

 

[g8rb8]

Possibilities:
.38 Military & Police (if made after after 1957 the Model 10)
.38 Military & Police Airweight (if made after 1957 the Model 12)
K-38 Combat Masterpiece a.k.a. the Model 15

From the pictures, even magnified, I cannot tell which model you dad is carrying. The differentiating characteristics of the above models:
.38 M&P (Model 10) - all steel
.38 M&P Airweight (Model 12) - alloy frame
K-38 Combat Masterpiece (Model 15) - adjustable rear sight

My guess is your dad is carrying a S&W .38 Military and Police (a.k.a. The Model 10 after 1957).

Based upon my recollections of posts on this forum and Wikipedia the K-38 Combat Masterpiece was more likely to be used by Military Police. Hopefully a more knowledgeable member of this forum can comment.

Reason for edit: By the time I finished typing my reply and reading I see there may be a bit of confusion as the the most likely revolver your dad was carrying. Without a clear picture of the majority of the revolver I am not sure if we can really be certain.

 

[jimmyj]

S&W Model 15.
In my era Pilots were issued revolvers as the thinking was a revolver would be easier to operate if one arm was injured, plus maintenance was simpler

 

[Jim Watson]

If I cross my eyes and squint, the grips look like Magnas, which would probably mean an M15.

Revolvers were secondary standard in the military for a long time after adoption of the 1911.
I conclude that pilots got revolvers because they were considered less likely to need a sidearm than a ground troop.

A coworker had been a Navy Shore Patrolman. He carried an M&P until his last spell in the service when he got one of the government Ruger Service Sixes.

 

[gfors]

The few AF that I talked to in country who carried a 4" bbl. revolver that was issued carried a S&W M15. As to "cocked & locked",1911's were carried in Cond.3,hammer down on empty chamber.

If protocol was to carry Condition 3, did you carry a rock to throw at the enemy, to gain time to rack the slide? Just kidding...but seriously, I can see why one would opt for a revolver, in that case.

 

[gfors]

S&W Model 15.
In my era Pilots were issued revolvers as the thinking was a revolver would be easier to operate if one arm was injured, plus maintenance was simpler

Never thought of that, but it makes perfect sense.

 

[gfors]

Possibilities:
.38 Military & Police (if made after after 1957 the Model 10)
.38 Military & Police Airweight (if made after 1957 the Model 12)
K-38 Combat Masterpiece a.k.a. the Model 15

From the pictures, even magnified, I cannot tell which model you dad is carrying. The differentiating characteristics of the above models:
.38 M&P (Model 10) - all steel
.38 M&P Airweight (Model 12) - alloy frame
K-38 Combat Masterpiece (Model 15) - adjustable rear sight

My guess is your dad is carrying a S&W .38 Military and Police (a.k.a. The Model 10 after 1957).

Based upon my recollections of posts on this forum and Wikipedia the K-38 Combat Masterpiece was more likely to be used by Military Police. Hopefully a more knowledgeable member of this forum can comment.

Reason for edit: By the time a finished typing my reply and reading I see there may be a bit of confusion as the the most likely revolver your dad was carrying. Without a clear picture of the majority of the revolver I am not sure if we can really be certain.

Unfortunately, I only have the one photo, with sidearm. I was thinking M&P, M10 or M15, but was really hoping someone from that time and place might see it here, and know for sure. I figured it was a long-shot, at best.

 

[Wrangler Rich]

Sorry for your loss, I'm sure you are proud of your Dad, and I thank him for his service.
I was issued a 1911 that was so loose, that I couldn't hit anything with it if I tried. I requested, from our Company Armorer, a Smith & Wesson revolver in it's stead, and received a model 15 in 1970. I would bet, that is what is riding on your Dad's hip.

WR

 

[THE PILGRIM]

Later, like when I was in Thailand, Model 15s was standard for everybody in the USAF.
Earlier, could have been Model 10.
The AF got away from 1911s long before that.
The first Military owned Gun I ever fired was a 1911.
That was the only time I ever fired one in the USAF.
The APs carried 1911s for a while after that, but went to revolvers.
That's pretty much the story for Gov guns.
Then we jump to personal pieces. Did he carry one of his guns?
Quite a few AF folks carried personal guns.
As I have posted, I usually carried my Model 19.

 

[Huski92]

Sorry for your loss. And thanks for his service.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[REM 3200]

S&W Model 15.
In my era Pilots were issued revolvers as the thinking was a revolver would be easier to operate if one arm was injured

jimmyj nailed the answer about why a revolver was the standard issue sidearm for aircrew.

 

[sigp220.45]

I agree with the Model 15 crowd. Lots of them around by then. Could be a Model 10, or even a Victory that picked up some magnas along the way.

What is taped to the stock of the M-16? Flares?

 

[THE PILGRIM]

In any case, revolvers were standard for aircrews all the way back to WWII.
Hers a well known Korean War Gyrene visiting the AF after he crash landed.

 

[snowman.45]

I grew up with a career Air Force Sgt. father. He was EOD and most of his time in, we were stationed at SAC bases. As a young kid in the '50s and '60s, I saw a lot of Air Police and SAC security guys on the bases, as well as a few armed pilots in Alaska. I know all of the AP guys I saw in the early to mid '60s were issued Model 15s, as were the pilots I recall seeing armed. Alaska was a pretty hot spot to be during the Cold War, and I used to watch F102s and F106s hitting the afterburners during Arctic Circle scrambles, as well as see and hear the B52s, and B47s taking off. Seemed like there were a lot of potential combat missions launched in that era, especially in that we were in Alaska during the Cuban Missle Crises, the Kennedy assassination, and the great earthquake.

My father was often issued sidearms when he and his unit were detailed to disarm downed fighters from WWII in the Aleutian Islands in the early '60s, as well as for other details and flight line duties dealing with the movement and loading of nukes. For some details, he carried a Model 12 2". For others, he carried a Model 15, and yet for others, he was issued a 1911, but I seem to remember those were mostly issued with white web gear for ceremonial purposes. I remember him cleaning that web gear at home.

 

[torizus]

My condolences on your dad passing. Your post tells me a few things about him like
1. he must've been a great dad based on your efforts that say you're thinking of him.
2. He was definitely a hero in my eyes as all those that served are
3. He was a gun guy so that revolver could be a model or caliber of his choice but upon a zoom of pic, it appears that the holster has the sight protector flap at top and gives rise to the 15 as the model carried.

I would assume that after having his BHP stolen, if he had another or other personal weapon, he would've remembered it and protected it.
My vote is for the M15.

 

[crazyphil]

I agree with the majority here. The issue revolver was the Model 15
Combat Masterpiece. .38 Spl. But, as a bird colonel you Dad could
carry about anything he wanted to. Sorry for your loss, and thank
God for men like him.

 

[crazyphil]

In any case, revolvers were standard for aircrews all the way back to WWII.
Hers a well known Korean War Gyrene visiting the AF after he crash landed.

The well known marine pilot of whom you speak was non other
than hall of fame Boston Red Sox great Ted Williams.

 

[PALADIN85020]

Revolvers were routinely issued as private protection armament for pilots, back to WWII. The official reason stated is that revolvers were more easily handled with one hand; the other might be occupied (particularly with chopper pilots) managing the aircraft, unbuckling, gathering gear, etc.

One of my high school buddies, Army Mohawk pilot Lt. Ed Cribb, was issued a refurbished S&W Victory Model in Vietnam. Sadly, he lost his life after his aircraft was disabled by ground fire and he had to eject too low - chute never opened fully. His remains now rest in the Fort Benning cemetery.

The AF got the first class Model 15s.

John

 

[gfors]

Probably a M-15 Combat Masterpiece. There may have been some older M-10s laying about the armory. Great pictures and very impressive rack of ribbons with the Silver Star being at the top. Love USAF humor with the A1E Skyraider patch "Crater Creator" LOL. The other picture with him as a Colonel next to the F16 -- must have been quite a difference between the A1E Skyraider and a F16 "viper" -- like a Model-T Ford to a Formula 1 race car.

He was awarded the Silver Star during a mortar attack (November 1, 1964) on some B57's (which weren't supposed to be there). He jumped into a battle-damaged fire truck, drove to the flight line, and started fighting the blaze. Ordinance (bombs) and ammo on the B57's were exploding and mortars were raining from the sky. According to the commendation, he was "instrumental in saving valuable aircraft, supplies, and the lives of a large number of personnel." His commander wanted to recommend him for a Purple Heart, because of the burns he sustained. My dad asked his commander to quash that commendation. He thought the Purple Heart should be awarded to someone who was "injured in battle". He didn't think his burns were injuries, compared to what others were going through.
He ended up in the A1E, because he wanted combat experience, and his squadron of F-100's wasn't going to deploy. After he'd been there a while, the F-100's did deploy to Vietnam. He was miffed, as he really wanted a chance at becoming an ace. He flew a bunch of fighters (and even a bomber, the FB-111), but never got a chance at a "dogfight".

 

[ordnanceguy]

What is taped to the stock of the M-16? Flares?

Hard to say, but to me it looks like a spare 20 round magazine. Notice the magazine in the mag well. That looks to me like two mags taped together. And the 100 MPH tape did not stop there. The muzzle appears to be taped as well, probably to avoid foreign matter getting into the barrel in case the pilot is making a quick exit on the ground after departing his aircraft.

The USAF was first to adopt the AR-15. I am not an AR expert but with this pic being dated '64-'65 the rifle could be either an AR-15 or an early M16. The revolver is almost certainly a Model 15 Combat Masterpiece.