What .38 was my Dad issued in Vietnam?

[Riverboys]

Thank you for sharing your Dad with us.

 

[les.b]

So sorry for your loss. The revolver is almost certainly a model 15. Also known as the Combat Masterpiece. And, as noted, a great choice for aviators.

Best Regards, Les

 

[Rodfac]

To the OP, by the mid 60's (I was in from 64 -75), the Air Force issued model 15 S&W's to the air crews that I flew with. The rifle in your pic is the original M-16...he has a back to back, taped pair of 20 round mags in the gun's mag well, plus another pair taped to the butt stock. Reversing the mags gave you add'l capacity without going to your web gear. I never saw a 30 round mag while I was in country in 1970 but have heard of them since. And, I never saw a USAF issued 1911 in Vietnam, Guam, Thailand nor the CONUS in the hands of USAF personnel. Not to say it didn't happen with Air Police det's. or in the hands of Air Force PJ's while in combat.

Though I'm sure you know his decorations but for the rest of us...his dad was also awarded the Silver Star, the Bronze Star, the Air Medal with 4 clusters, and in the bottom row, a Vietnamese Cross of Gallantry-twice, their equivalent to the Silver Star. These are combat decorations, not support staff stuff....He was a warrior!

I originally qualified with an M1 Garand on induction at the Air Force Academy in 1964, but re-qual'd with the M16 in the early fall of that year. Flying the Skyraider (A-1E), your dad would have participated in air strikes as well as airborne cover & flak suppression for downed airmen rescue ops...in this latter role he would most probably have had a "Sandy" or "Spad" call sign. By the time I got to the festivities, in Nov '69, the A-1E's in Vietnam had been turned over to the Vietnamese Air Force. Those still in use with USAF markings & pilots were flying rescue ops out of NKP in Thailand...the heroics of those Sandy/Spad pilots is the stuff of legend...they NEVER had to buy a drink anywhere in country. BIG BrASS cojones on them all! You, sir, come from very good stock as my dad would say...may they all rest in peace. "I bear you on eagles wings, and brought you unto myself..." Exodus 19-4 A verse etched in granite at the Air Commando/FAC Memorial Park, Hurlburt Field, FL

Here's my own litany of woes from that period...

I flew the O-1E (L-19 in Army lingo) (that high wing Cessna in the pic below) as a USAF 1st Lt from Oct '69 to Nov 1970 throughout lll & iV Corp, Vietnam, but my home patch was the 5th Special Forces (Green Beret) camp at An Loc, in lll Corp (about 40 miles north of Bien Hoa) and just 10 kilometers from the Cambodian border. During that year, I was issued a S&W model 15 with Magna grips and a CAR15 for the 5.56mm round. My job was that of an airborne Forward Air Controller (FAC); doing visual reconnaissance, while directing air strikes, medivac (dustoff) flights, artillery fire, and Army gunship ops all from a lofty 1500 feet above terrain.

The revolver rode in an AF issued swivel holster as in your pic, on the standard US Army web belt. Issue ammunition was the 130 gr FMJ round nose .38 Special round supplemented with a dozen flare rounds in .38 Special as well. The gun I had, was in really good shape, considering the climate and being banged about while in the cockpit...about NRA Good+, IIRC. A cpl months into my tour, I took possession of another FAC's Browning Hi-Power and carried that in a "Tanker" type of cross holster used by the Army. I liked it for it's 13 round magazines and its great accuracy. After acquiring it, the Model 15 stayed in my duffel and was turned in when i DEROS'd late in November, 1970. Wish I had it now!

The issue, 130 gr FMJ, .38 Special ammunition was notorious for its lack of accuracy and mine was no exception...4-5"+ groups at 25 yds were the best you could hope for...but that Hi-Power would shoot Nato issue 9mm into half that from an improvised rest.

I pretty much ignored, (but carried) a handgun but the carbine accompanied me on every flight along with two bandoleers of AF issued ammunition. The handgun, however, was a 24/7, full time carry proposition, even in the bunker or while asleep...& trips to the shower point, 4-holer, mess bunker, mortar pit...it was on my hip and never out of hand's reach. It was a habit that I never broke...there's still a good handgun within reach 99% of the time. HTH's Rod

BTW, that's me in 'tiger stripes' with the Model 15 on my hip, loading rockets on the bird about May 1970. For those interested in those long ago times, I also carried a Ruana sheath knife that would cut through web gear like hot butter or provide for needy chores if shot down. The 2.75" rockets are white phosphorous for marking purposes and occasionally for strikes, tho flechettes worked better for the latter. Rolling in from the "perch" at 1500 feet, I could hit a barn sized target 100% of the time if the rocket came out of the tubes ok. Out board of the rocket pods, you may be able to pick out the flare shackle point. Without any instrumentation in the cockpit, any night time airborne operations were nearly suicide...no horizon or even cockpit lighting in the bird nor in that country back then...dark was DARK. I flew something over 350 missions during my first tour, was very lucky any number of times, but was hit only twice; no damage to me, but the 'dog' bled a bit...God bless and keep those that didn't come back. Memorial Day is two weeks away, hope you all remember, May 30th is the day, not some 3-day weekend made up by a vote-hungry Congress. YMMv. Rod

 

[plunk]

FWIW, when I was an F-111 crewmember in the early '80s in Europe we were issued model 15s when we had ORIs (operational readiness inspections), which were our "go to war" exercises...

 

[shouldazagged]

Gfors, please except my sympathy for you and everyone who loved your dad.

Clearly he was a fine, brave man who richly earned the Silver Star. I'd wager he would have been an ace if he had been given the chance. As it was, the A1 guys saved a lot of lives.

 

[Krogen]

Thanks gofors, for telling us a bit about your Dad and his time over there. I'm sorry he's gone. He must have been a great man. I think I would have enjoyed having a beer with him.

 

[oldfac]

SW 15

Carried a S&W 15 as a night FAC on HCMT. Carried tracer ammo to use to attract rescue aircraft if I was shot down. It was carried in a holster sewed on a survival vest.

 

[Bat Guano]

As an SP in SEA I mostly worked at TOC (Headquarters). Nobody else wanted to work around officers but I found them to be pretty nice guys. The F4 pilots got their flight gear in the same building so I saw them come and go a lot. I was a gun person at the time and paid attention. The Model 15 was standard issue, usually in a swivel holster. I do remember one guy with a 1911, and one with a BHP. The 1911 guy wanted some .45 tracers which I wrote stateside and got for him. WWII headstamps, as I recall.

I carried a camera a lot there, and have lots of photos of those pilots in an album. One of those was Robin Olds; he carried a Model 15 like most others. The picture turned out pretty good, mustache and all. He looked like he was going bear hunting with a switch.

The issue load, as noted, was a 130 grain FMJ. I had a private stash for my Model 15 with some Elmer Keith level HPSWCs and 12.0 gr. Unique...

 

[Dingotech]

I recently bought a Model 15-4. Love the stories shared here! Gives me a far greater appreciation for not only what a great revolver I now have, but how bad-*** REAL AMERICAN men are.

 

[sheppard]

Sorry for your loss. Thanks for telling us about your father and his service to the country.

Re: your desire to obtain a Model 15. Be aware that many Model 15s marked USAF are forgeries and are highly overpriced. My recommendation is to pick up an unmarked Model 15 which will give you all the jollies of ownership and shooting enjoyment. There are 15s out there that are ex-police issue with some holster wear on the bluing, but are tight mechanically and good shooters.

 

[Texas Star]

I was an Air Force cop from 1963-1967. I'm a distinguished graduate of Air Police School, the USAF's police academy. I think that lasted eight weeks after Basic. I still have a certificate citing me for academic achievement while there. I think I passed out second man in my class.

I applied for Vietnam, but in its wisdom, the AF sent me instead to Lowry AFB, CO. (Denver) and to Stephenville Air Station, Newfoundland. That's in Canada, for those of you who didn't pass Geography in elementary school...

The AP manual used in Jan., 1963 already covered the S&W M-15 as the std. USAF sidearm. Ammo was normally the weak M-41 ball round, with 130 grain FMJ bullets and a mild muzzle velocity. A poor stopper from all accounts and our NCOIC in Denver took unit funds to go off base and buy Hi-Velocity (.38-44) ammo for duty use. This had 150 grain jacketed RN bullets. Velocity was listed as about 1125 FPS. Qual. ammo was 148 grain lead WC stuff.

There was still a shortage of M-15's, with most going to SAC and to AF operations in SE Asia.

 

[Texas Star]

Continuing...


Because of the shortage of S&W M-15 .38's, we got a lot of Victory Model .38's and some Colt Official Police and Commando guns. These were transferred from the Navy. The vast majority were S&W's. At some bases, there were enough M-15's for officers and senior NCO's.

The Victory Model def. saw service in Vietnam. One pararescue man who received a posthumous Air Force Cross for valor when fighting alongside Army infantrymen was photographed with a Victory Model .38 and an M-16. He was standing by his helicopter at the time. I've seen others with Victory Models, inc. some pilots and other aircrew.

I saw some Navy airmen in our base club and on the runways while their planes were being refueled or getting repairs. They always wore Victory Models. Their knives varied.

Look at the pic above of Capt. Ted Williams, taken at a USAF base where he had to crash land his F-9F Panther. His revolver is a Victory Model S&W. He was a USMC pilot.

Pilots often carried private weapons. A Navy Intruder pilot who became a famous author probably wore a S&W M-19 Combat Magnum .357, with which he armed one of his fictional A-6 pilots in his novels. (Stephen Coonts.) Gun writer Gene Gangarossa has said that he wore a P-38 aboard a USN helicopter. He likes the P-38; wrote a whole book on them! And a fine book it is!

I never saw a M-10 S&W in the USAF. The Victory Model is technically NOT the later Model 10! But they may have been there. Different bases had different sidearm inventories. I know that Army pilots carried M-10's and had both std. and heavy barrels and both sq. and round butts. They later got some Rugers, too. But that was well past the Viet war.

I think I see the squared off butt and maybe a silver grip medallion in the OP's photo, and this means the gun is in all likelihood a M-15 S&W, the most likely choice at the time. It also looks to not have a lanyard ring, as again suggests a M-15, not a Victory Model.

Someone posted an AF swivel holster with a M-15 that has target stocks. Those weren't normal; he added those grips on his own. BTW, all four-inch Combat Masterpieces I've seen had the target hammer and trigger. I've read that Gen. Lemay thought those worked better when wearing gloves, and we had a lot of bases where very cold winters were the rule. Ditto if a crew bailed out over Warsaw Pact nations, had war come. North Korea and China also have very cold winters.

The USAF also issued some Chief Specials and snub M-15's (called M-56) to officers in missile silos. (ICBM's). Airweight Chiefs with aluminum cylinders (called Aircrewman) were withdrawn and destroyed after the weak cylinders were discovered. Some K-frame snubs (AF M-13) met the same fate, again for alloy cylinders. I think the M-56 was intended to replace those.

Air Police investigators and some officers had access to Colt snub .38's with hammer shrouds. Don't know if they were Det. Specials or Cobras. The Agent had a shorter butt.

 

[Watchdog]

I don't know enough about Smiths to even guess what the revolver might have been.

I'm sorry your dad has passed away. I just have to tell you how much I love this photo of him. It should be a family treasure for generations.

 

[Old TexMex]

Very sorry for your loss. Your father must've been a fine man. A true hero.
Respectfully, Jim

 

[Old TexMex]

To the OP, by the mid 60's (I was in from 64 -75), the Air Force issued model 15 S&W's to the air crews that I flew with. The rifle in your pic is the original M-16...he has a back to back, taped pair of 20 round mags in the gun's mag well, plus another pair taped to the butt stock. Reversing the mags gave you add'l capacity without going to your web gear. I never saw a 30 round mag while I was in country in 1970 but have heard of them since. And, I never saw a USAF issued 1911 in Vietnam, Guam, Thailand nor the CONUS in the hands of USAF personnel. Not to say it didn't happen with Air Police det's. or in the hands of Air Force PJ's while in combat.

Though I'm sure you know his decorations but for the rest of us...his dad was also awarded the Silver Star, the Bronze Star, the Air Medal with 4 clusters, and in the bottom row, a Vietnamese Cross of Gallantry-twice, their equivalent to the Silver Star. These are combat decorations, not support staff stuff....He was a warrior!

I originally qualified with an M1 Garand on induction at the Air Force Academy in 1964, but re-qual'd with the M16 in the early fall of that year. Flying the Skyraider (A-1E), your dad would have participated in air strikes as well as airborne cover & flak suppression for downed airmen rescue ops...in this latter role he would most probably have had a "Sandy" or "Spad" call sign. By the time I got to the festivities, in Nov '69, the A-1E's in Vietnam had been turned over to the Vietnamese Air Force. Those still in use with USAF markings & pilots were flying rescue ops out of NKP in Thailand...the heroics of those Sandy/Spad pilots is the stuff of legend...they NEVER had to buy a drink anywhere in country. BIG BrASS cojones on them all! You, sir, come from very good stock as my dad would say...may they all rest in peace. "I bear you on eagles wings, and brought you unto myself..." Exodus 19-4 A verse etched in granite at the Air Commando/FAC Memorial Park, Hurlburt Field, FL

Here's my own litany of woes from that period...

I flew the O-1E (L-19 in Army lingo) (that high wing Cessna in the pic below) as a USAF 1st Lt from Oct '69 to Nov 1970 throughout lll & iV Corp, Vietnam, but my home patch was the 5th Special Forces (Green Beret) camp at An Loc, in lll Corp (about 40 miles north of Bien Hoa) and just 10 kilometers from the Cambodian border. During that year, I was issued a S&W model 15 with Magna grips and a CAR15 for the 5.56mm round. My job was that of an airborne Forward Air Controller (FAC); doing visual reconnaissance, while directing air strikes, medivac (dustoff) flights, artillery fire, and Army gunship ops all from a lofty 1500 feet above terrain.

The revolver rode in an AF issued swivel holster as in your pic, on the standard US Army web belt. Issue ammunition was the 130 gr FMJ round nose .38 Special round supplemented with a dozen flare rounds in .38 Special as well. The gun I had, was in really good shape, considering the climate and being banged about while in the cockpit...about NRA Good+, IIRC. A cpl months into my tour, I took possession of another FAC's Browning Hi-Power and carried that in a "Tanker" type of cross holster used by the Army. I liked it for it's 13 round magazines and its great accuracy. After acquiring it, the Model 15 stayed in my duffel and was turned in when i DEROS'd late in November, 1970. Wish I had it now!

The issue, 130 gr FMJ, .38 Special ammunition was notorious for its lack of accuracy and mine was no exception...4-5"+ groups at 25 yds were the best you could hope for...but that Hi-Power would shoot Nato issue 9mm into half that from an improvised rest.

I pretty much ignored, (but carried) a handgun but the carbine accompanied me on every flight along with two bandoleers of AF issued ammunition. The handgun, however, was a 24/7, full time carry proposition, even in the bunker or while asleep...& trips to the shower point, 4-holer, mess bunker, mortar pit...it was on my hip and never out of hand's reach. It was a habit that I never broke...there's still a good handgun within reach 99% of the time. HTH's Rod

BTW, that's me in 'tiger stripes' with the Model 15 on my hip, loading rockets on the bird about May 1970. For those interested in those long ago times, I also carried a Ruana sheath knife that would cut through web gear like hot butter or provide for needy chores if shot down. The 2.75" rockets are white phosphorous for marking purposes and occasionally for strikes, tho flechettes worked better for the latter. Rolling in from the "perch" at 1500 feet, I could hit a barn sized target 100% of the time if the rocket came out of the tubes ok. Out board of the rocket pods, you may be able to pick out the flare shackle point. Without any instrumentation in the cockpit, any night time airborne operations were nearly suicide...no horizon or even cockpit lighting in the bird nor in that country back then...dark was DARK. I flew something over 350 missions during my first tour, was very lucky any number of times, but was hit only twice; no damage to me, but the 'dog' bled a bit...God bless and keep those that didn't come back. Memorial Day is two weeks away, hope you all remember, May 30th is the day, not some 3-day weekend made up by a vote-hungry Congress. YMMv. Rod

Hey Birddog, (Captain America) thanks. Respect, and blue skies!

 

[carpriver]

sorry for your loss, he was a hero, I was issued a M-15 when I was in Vietnam, along with a M16 that had a failure to fire issue. Our airfield was taking a lot of mortar fire; between the FAC and A1Es they saved our rears, Machine gun fire and two napalm bombs ended the attack. A whole lot of respect for both of groups of men.

 

[Rock185]

gfors, reference the scared about "cocked and locked ?", not so much. Cocked and locked with the 1911 wasn't a thing back then, unless one had read some of the early Jeff Cooper stuff. As has been mentioned, we were to carry the issued 1911A1s hammer down, on an empty chamber. I thought I was quite the maverick carrying mine with a loaded chamber and hammer down.

 

[Texas Star]

Revolvers were supposed to be carried with an empty chamber under the hammer.

I think this was because older Victory Models could fire if dropped on the hammer, so they made it a blanket regulation for all .38's.

 

[Drm50]

I've seen issue 10s and 15s but that one looks like a 15 to me. I had a 15 and our supply didn't have 38sp ammo. We sponged ammo off AF. The APs and flight crews seemed to all have 15s. There were a lot of 38 revolvers that found their way into RVn from civilian contractors, sent from home and other non military sources. There was a crack down at one point on
support troops that were suppose to be carrying a M16 and 240rds. They got to carrying handguns mostly 38s because they were to lazy to carry a M16. Then if the SHF you had guys with a revolver popping away at dinks with AKs.

 

[Texas Star]

I've never understood that mentality. I wanted both a M-16 and a .38, each filling its separate role. I think I was the only guy I knew in the AF who also studied use of the knife as a weapon. And the bayonet.

I noticed in UK news videos of the war in Afghanistan that when HRH Prince Harry boarded his Apache combat helicopter, he had both a Browning 9mm on his vest and an assault rifle to carry aboard the flight. He kept the L85A1 (if I recall their rifle) on the wall of his quarters.

If shot down, the rifle might have kept the Taliban at bay well enough for rescue air cover to arrive. I admired his martial spirit, determined to fight on the ground if shot down.