What can you tell me about the 1st Model Russian?

[Win38-55]

I've seen photos, and read Mike Venturino's article, but that's about it. I'd be interested in things like serial number range, dates of manufacture, and any other interesting tidbits and trivia.

 

[Win38-55]

I've seen photos, and read Mike Venturino's article, but that's about it. I'd be interested in things like serial number range, dates of manufacture, and any other interesting tidbits and trivia.

 

[JimSupica]

Hi Kirk,

There's books on the subject, so it's a bit tough to give a quick response here.

The 1st Russ. is identical to the American Model except for the chambering and the barrel marking (usually) ending with the words "Russian Model".

Charlie Pate's "Smith & Wesson American Model" is the magnum opus on Americans & 1st Russians -- a great book that I'm sure you'd enjoy with your interest in old west firearms.

David Chicoine's "S&W Sixguns of the Old West" covers all Model Threes in wonderful detail, from history, through historical usage, to gunsmithing & shooting (Americans, Russians, Schofields, New Mod. #3's, 44 DA's & related Models).

Older & out of print, but still a great book directly on point is Parsons' "S&W Revolvers" - subtitled "the pioneer single actions" or similar.

Of course Factory Historian Roy Jinks deals definitively w/ all S&W's in his "History of S&W" and Neal & Jinks "S&W 1857-1945".

Rick & I discuss them, w/ color photos, in "Standard Catalog of S&W".

The very basic info such as dates of manufacture, quantity, basic variations, is well laid out in Flayderman's Guide (my nominee for the best book on old guns ever).

You can find very rough minimal background & identification info on them at my http://ArmchairGunShow.com website. Specific sublinks:

Model Threes overview: http://armchairgunshow.com/Mod3-info.html

Russian Models: http://armchairgunshow.com/Russ-info.html

Schofields:
http://armchairgunshow.com/Schof-info.html

Best of luck in your research -- the Model 3 family are my all time favorite handguns, with great colorful historic usage, and very significant as the first truly effective full size "fighting" cartridge handguns. In many ways they are the grand-daddies of all modern handguns.

I think you'll find them fascinating. -- Jim

 

[opoefc]

Kirk, You just got a million dollars worth of free advice from the "Guru Of All Things Model Three" Do what he says and whatever questions you have after absorbing the knowledge in the sources suggested by Jim, ask me. Ed.

 

[Win38-55]

Jim, a very large 'thank you' for that wealth of information (and that photo of those gorgeous family of Model 3's). Looks like I've got some very interesting reading ahead of me. The reason I raised this question is that I just purchased my first 1st Model Russian. I should have it in my hands in about a week and a half. I haven't paid much attention to them in the past, but just recently noticed them. I've got a particular weakness for those magnificent 8" barrels. Here's a couple photos that the seller emailed me:

 

[JimSupica]

That's a beauty Kirk, congrats! - Jim

 

[opoefc]

Kirk, As Jim says, that's a beauty. Let us know if all the Assembly marks are matching and if those minty stocks are really numbered to the gun. Actually what you have there ( I assume it is a commercial model, not a Russian purchased gun) is a second model American, but sometimes called a first model Russian when chambered in .44S&W Russian caliber, or Old Old Model Russian in some books. Being a stickler for correct nomenclature, I would call your very nice gun a 2nd Model American in caliber .44S&W Russian. I say that, not to disparage your gun in any way, but to emphasize the fact that the Russians had very little to do with the design of the 2nd American, suggesting only minimim changes, but had everything to do with the design of the .44S&W Russian cartridge. Their later suggestions resulted in the next generation of 2nd & 3rd model Russian revolvers. Does your gun letter as .44S&W Russian? I ask that because these guns are not marked with their caliber and I have seen seller, and buyers think a gun is .44 S&W Russian caliber merely because they looked in the chambers and saw a ridge, when in fact the gun was some specially ordered odd ball caliber. Ed.

 

[Win38-55]

Ed, thank you for that additional information. I enjoy details like that and appreciate the extra information. It will take at least a week for me to receive this gun, by the time my payment arrives and then sends me the sixgun. (It's the same fellow from whom I purchased the Schofield). In answer to your questions, I can only pass on what the fellow told me in a couple phone conversations:

I confirmed with him, at the time, that it was 44 Russian caliber. (He is a very serious and large collector of S&W's so hopefully he got that right.)

He also said that all serial numbers on the gun are matching, although he did not take the grips off on the phone. However, he also said at a different point in the conversation that the grips are original.

He didn't mention anything about a letter, so I assume it has not been lettered. I do plan to get it lettered, however.

He said there is still quite a bit of case color on the left side of the hammer, and I can see it in the photo. The bore and chambers are excellent and, mechanically, the gun is crisp, tight, and locks up like a vault. He also said that the all the printing on the gun is crisp and sharp.

The only thing that he said is not original to the gun is the front sight. He says that this one has the same contour, but is a little thicker than normal factory sights. Oh yes, and he also said that one of the small screws is not original .... I think it is the locking screw on the left side that fits into the notch of the large spindle screw.

So, if I understand correctly, the 1st Model American is not chambered in the 44 S&W Russian. If one of these early Model 3's are chambered in the 44 Russian, then it is really a 2nd Model American in 44 Russian caliber. Is that correct? Also, from reading an article by Mike Venturino, it seems that this particular type of Model 3 was manufactured from 1871 to 1873? The serial number on my particular gun is 26,382.

 

[JimSupica]

Originally posted by Win38-55:
If one of these early Model 3's are chambered in the 44 Russian, then it is really a 2nd Model American in 44 Russian caliber. Is that correct?

(Kirk, I think Uncle Ed is the only S&W aficionado in the country who would make that contention, but I'm not going to quibble since I'm pretty sure he was there when they were introduced.)

It would seem to me that the "RUSSIAN MODEL" marking at the end of the barrel address would be somewhat dispositive of the topic, but I guess these were before truth in labeling laws.

What I do find interesting is that there seem to be a number of Americans chambered for .44 Russian without such marking on the barrel rib. Some of those may have been rechambered since the factory, of course. I'm pretty sure the .44 American cartridge faded from production much sooner than the .44 Russian, and doubtless obsolete Americans were made shootable again by rechambering for the Russian ctg.

However, my suspicions are that there are indeed some Americans that are not Russian Model marked, but were chambered for .44 Russian by the factory. Of course, I'm venturing strongly into the world of guess-work & make-believe here, but I certainly got some surprises when I started test-chambering my American models -- more of these out there than I'd ever have guessed.

Again, in the just-making-this-up-as-I-go-along approach to research, I tend to wonder if maybe the optional Russian chambering was available in Americans for some run of production before someone decided to add the "Russian Model" marking to the barrel rib. IIRC, no prior model of S&W had either a Model Name marked on it, nor any indication of caliber/chambering.

Perhaps some confusion resulting from the big Model 3 being chambered for two different cartridges (in otherwise externally identical revolvers) is what led to this first S&W caliber or model marking decision?

I do like Ed's approach, going on the quacks-like-a-duck theory, since American collectors accept the 1st Mod. Russian as part of the family, and the 2nd & 3rd Mod. Russian are so cosmetically & ergonomically different (i.e. awkward) from the 1st as to comprise their own niche of wonderfully colorful but horribly unshootable 19th Century Smiths.

(Whatever you do, don't tell Ed I questioned him -- he's taught me everything I know & much of what I just suspect, and I'd hate to have him clam up on me now.) -- Jim

 

[Win38-55]

I won't breath a word to Ed, Jim. Speaking of unshootable 19th century Smiths, I noticed that a jacketed bullet of diameter .4505 would not fit in any of the throats of my original Schofield (I wasn't going to shoot a jacketed bullet, I was just checking the throat diameter). I then measured a couple throats and found them to be .449". I don't know how to measure the groove diameter of the bore, since there are 5 grooves, but I've heard it was .454.

 

[opoefc]

Kirk, Don't worry about letting the cat out of the bag. Jim has been a very astute student and horse trader of old S&Ws for some years now. He's a work in progress that keeps on ticking. What he's really trying to do here is butter me up so he can get on my good side and ask for a big discount ( as usual) for the minty S&Ws that will be on my table at the Tulsa show in a couple of weeks. But I know his technique now! ( Once bitten, twice shy, my ole Pappy used to say!) -- Anyhow, Jim's right that a lot of American models can be interesting subject to study and figure out their original calibers vs. what they are now. Oddly enough, the .44 American cartridge is not a true .44 but closer to a .42 Some years ago I was doing some research in the Colt archives at Hartford and came across a shipping record for a Colt revolver conversion that was shipped to London together with 50 rounds of ".42 S&W Central Fire Cartridges" I looked for examples of those .42 S&W CF cartridges for years - Zip, Nada - Then I got smarter and started measuring lands and grooves of Colt conversions and S&W American models and found that most of them fell in about .427 to .435 or so. Those numbers matched most of the Henry .44RF dimensions, and looking back in early records of the Henry rifle, they were first called a .42 caliber, so I surmised what the Colt shipping clerk was entering in the ledger was a Colt revolver converted to fire .44S&W American cartridges as the .44CF Colt round had yet to be designed. Maybe to him all cartridges the size of a Henry round, were .42 caliber. Now Jim will tell you I was there watching that clerk enter that data, but that's not quite true - I was on coffee break and missed it. Ed.

 

[Win38-55]

Very fascinating stuff. I sure do wish I could pass by your table at the Tulsa show, Ed. Unfortunately, I live in a rural area in Canada and haven't seen a gun show in more than a decade. I'm sure that Tusla show would be a real eye-opener and education for me.

 

[opoefc]

Kirk, Well if you can ever get down to the States and get to the Tulsa Gun Show, don't pass by my table! Ya gotta stop and chew the fat! Supica's table is close by - 'bout as far away as I can throw a refinished Colt Single Action, so between us we can tell you lots of stories (lies) about all those Smiths on our tables! Ed.

 

[Win38-55]

Ed, thanks for the invitation. Looking at old Smiths .... buying a real nice one .... chewing the fat .... that's my idea of a very good time! By the way, I check out Jim's website a few times a week. Very nicely done.

 

[dinguss]

LOL well Kirk you sure got the S&W info flying here!
Im in Canada to and have Just Bought and Scofield second Model Comercial Revolver off a Member Here 1911
Garys been great to deal with and im happy with the Schofield.
The Chamber throats in my Scofield are .452 the bore is bigger about .454
Was that because they used Black powder back then and wanted the bullets smaller so things would not Jam up with BP fouling?

Personaly i love the Grip on the S&W Russian second and Thrid model better than the Schofield grip.
But i got big club hands!
maby the Russians mostly had big Club like Paws like mine and so made them grips to suite!
My S&W Russian models fit me like a glove.

 

[JimSupica]

Personaly i love the Grip on the S&W Russian second and Thrid model better than the Schofield grip.
But i got big club hands!

Amazing! Can you reach the hammer without shifting your grip? You must have Thumbs To Be Reckoned With. -- Jim

 

[dinguss]

Yep! my thumb just barely can catch the hammers spurs end and cock the gun without moveing any of my other fingers.
Its alot easyer shooting two handed tho which i do most of the time.
I can rest the Trigger gard on my left finger closest to my left thumb. and cock with my left thumb alot easyer than with my right thats for sure.
But the grip to me is EX But hey im sure everyones diffrent.
I can pick up a basketball with one hand off the ground to tho! LOL

Thats why i like British Antique Revolvers they have nice BIG grips.
Like the Webley Wilkinson 1892. That gun has a huge grip! Also one of my favorite guns to shoot!

 

[Win38-55]

Originally posted by opoefc:
Being a stickler for correct nomenclature, I would call your very nice gun a 2nd Model American in caliber .44S&W Russian. ...Ed.

In Canada, antique sixguns are not considered firearms. To facilitate the importation of my old Smith shown in the photo earlier, I contacted the Canada Firearms Centre to get a letter verifying its antique status. This morning, I received an email from them wondering if I had made a mistake. I had called it a '1st Model Russian'. The lady at the centre said that, given the serial number I had supplied, it should be a 'Model Three 2nd Model American' in 44 Russian caliber. Ed, it looks like our Canada Firearms Centre agrees with you. Thanks again. By the way, I received a scanned copy of the verification letter this afternoon, so I'm all ready for Canada Customs.