What causes bluing to turn " Plum "??

Interesting old thread. I happen to like a nice "plum" on firearms; knowing it's not a harmful defect, I'm OK with it. This Detonics Combat Master I purchased a few years ago has a nice "plum" on the slide; common on the early Detonics.


 
And this thread died nearly 9 years ago. Just sayin'.

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I'm baaack.:eek:
Great chemistry lesson by kenpofan.
 
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Ask this question on an M1Garand forum and you will get further speculation. Lots of guys prefer the plum to black or grey park. Garands hare hard steel, some with lead dipped heals and most all were immersed in cosmoline. The thought is the cosmo does something to the park to make it plum. My 2 cents. And Luke I am your father!
 
Hey a good zombie thread...

Some of the Ruger guys find the plum guns collectable. Here is my Super Bearcat with a frame and hammer that turned plum (actually more of a brown):

 
My first 28-2 that I bought in 1978 had a slightly plum cylinder. The other one the pawnshop had was plum too. Neither were refinished. Mine was the slightly cheaper of the two, due to more holster wear. I couldn't really care less about it..
 
Back from the dead this thread goes...

I have to say I'm a bit miffed.... I took my 29-3 in to have refinished and it turned out WORSE. Though it is otherwise in very good condition without a scratch or even any holster wear, it was driving me nuts to look at because it was showing an irregular "plum" pattern and in some cases it was showing that "milky haze" especially on the outside of the crane. Now it is even worse with even more "milky haze" spots.

It looks like to me that when the 'smith took it to the wheel they were not consistent, they went in multiple directions and even started in the middle of the surface they were working on. I wouldn't mind the "plum" coloring so much if it were even and consistent. When I picked up the gun today it was lathered up in oil and I couldn't see the flaws... it was a 3 hour drive home so I'm going to call tomorrow and see what they say. For $300 I wish it would have turned out better.... one thing for sure the bubbles, or fingerprint, or whatever it is above the trademark was NOT there when I took it in.

edit-Just an update: I called Ahlman's and emailed the photos. They said to "bring it in and we'll look at it".... that won't be until the middle of August, at least.
 

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Back from the dead this thread goes...

I have to say I'm a bit miffed.... I took my 29-3 in to have refinished and it turned out WORSE. Though it is otherwise in very good condition without a scratch or even any holster wear, it was driving me nuts to look at because it was showing an irregular "plum" pattern and in some cases it was showing that "milky haze" especially on the outside of the crane. Now it is even worse with even more "milky haze" spots.

It looks like to me that when the 'smith took it to the wheel they were not consistent, they went in multiple directions and even started in the middle of the surface they were working on. I wouldn't mind the "plum" coloring so much if it were even and consistent. When I picked up the gun today it was lathered up in oil and I couldn't see the flaws... it was a 3 hour drive home so I'm going to call tomorrow and see what they say. For $300 I wish it would have turned out better.... one thing for sure the bubbles, or fingerprint, or whatever it is above the trademark was NOT there when I took it in.
Who did the work so we can avoid them?
 
This is Colts bluing process back before WWII, produced absolutely deep beautiful blue. Guess S&W had similar.
 

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This is Colts bluing process back before WWII, produced absolutely deep beautiful blue. Guess S&W had similar.
That's the American Gas Furnace system. The 'rotary drum furnace'.
It used the proprietary oil Carbona, and thats where the term Carbona Bluing comes from.
Truth is the system will produce bluing with use of most any type of oil, even plain Linseed which Winchester used with the process when bluing no critical parts like small hardward for the guns.
The small amt of oil used is mixed into a small size 'char' which was at the time bone char.
Said to be the for the best results though again some have used certain wood char in part and bluing results as well.
It's a temper blue (850+F) so the rest of the ingredients are what produces the small but sometimes brilliant differences betw one and anothers work.
The underlying metal polish is of primariy importance.

This took the place of Charcoal Bluing which was done on open hearth burning wood charcoal.
Nearly the same look, they can be compared side by side and the difference can often be seen.

Just about all of the US gun industry switched to Carbona Blue system just before WW1.
Colt around 1911
Winchester used it,,S&W of course.
H&R, Savage, etc.
A great time saver and cut labor costs.

Rust blue was continued to be used for bbls, mag tubes and the like. SxS soldered assemblied certainly can't stand up to the temps of charcoal or carbona bluing.
About the only production rifle bbl I can think of that was Charcoal blued was the Henry rifle. There are likely others.
One-of hand built (muzzle loader) rifles were sometimes charcoal blued along with their steel fittings.

The polish given to the metal was and still it the real secret to the fine final finishes of the day.

Hot Salt Bluing came around in the industry in the late 1930's. for the most part.

Sloppy polishing gradually took the place of the fine finishes starting in the 1970's IMO.
The public has accepted the lesser quality, so there was no reason to offer anything better. Much the same in
most any factory made product.
 
Wow - great 411!
Thank you, 2152hq
I gotta say though, ive had a 27-2 from the mid '70's and the polish/shine was just remarkable- it looked like Nickel from some angles - that being said, I would love to some of the earlier finishes you talk about as I bet they are incredible
 
Back from the dead this thread goes...

I have to say I'm a bit miffed.... I took my 29-3 in to have refinished and it turned out WORSE. Though it is otherwise in very good condition without a scratch or even any holster wear, it was driving me nuts to look at because it was showing an irregular "plum" pattern and in some cases it was showing that "milky haze" especially on the outside of the crane. Now it is even worse with even more "milky haze" spots.

It looks like to me that when the 'smith took it to the wheel they were not consistent, they went in multiple directions and even started in the middle of the surface they were working on. I wouldn't mind the "plum" coloring so much if it were even and consistent. When I picked up the gun today it was lathered up in oil and I couldn't see the flaws... it was a 3 hour drive home so I'm going to call tomorrow and see what they say. For $300 I wish it would have turned out better.... one thing for sure the bubbles, or fingerprint, or whatever it is above the trademark was NOT there when I took it in.
I hope you have good detailed pictures of the before gun so you can prove your assessments.
Larry
 
Interesting old thread. I happen to like a nice "plum" on firearms; knowing it's not a harmful defect, I'm OK with it. This Detonics Combat Master I purchased a few years ago has a nice "plum" on the slide; common on the early Detonics.


My Ruger p 97 has a plum blue finish.
 
This is from The Home Machinist group from 12/2013.


Called “color case hardening” and basically the part is put in a tin (to exclude oxygen) surrounded by charcoal, bone chips, and other stuff. The tin is then heated for set times and temperatures and the contents dumped into a quenching bath. To my knowledge nobody has been able to replicate Colt’s old work, the details of their process are lost to time. There are guys that do great color casing today (Doug Turnbull being the most famous) and it isn’t beyond the scope of the advanced hobbies willing to spend much time working out the kinks . . . Brownells sells a full kit with directions and individual supplies.

Brownells has a fairly extensive line of products.

 
The reddish/plum color on Hot Salt Blued pieces I believe comes from more than a few things.
Since it evolves on some Ruger SA revolvers and parts (investment cast) quite often,,some hot blued Milsurp (mostly) bolt action rifle recv'rs, hot blued cast malleable iron framed break open single and SxS shotgun frames, some other mfg'rs semi auto pistol frames and slides and some small parts (investment cast?), re'blued (hot salt) S&W cylinders and some bbls & occassionaly the sideplates.
About the only common thread is the Hot Salt blue.
All different types of steel/alloy and ways of fabrication

The color doesn't often show right out of the bluing tank either. Sometimes it takes some weeks or even months or longer to start showing.

Investment cast parts have always gotten a big blame for the plum color. But what about the reason for the others turning.
A H&R breakopen single shot shotgun from the 30's that's hot re-blued and turned plum is certainly not Investment cast.
Neither are the S&W parts on those M&P's that are engraved post WW2 in W Germany and many have reddish hue cylinders and perhaps bbls.

Personally I don't know the why of it all and I've not done any Hot Salt bluing in over 30yrs anyway.

I like blued parts to be blue and remain that way.
 
Many moon ago, I work in QA/QC in semiconductor plant construction where many miles of 316L stainless tubing was welded. We would see purple discoloration on either side of a TIG (tungsten inert gas) weld. This was due to manganese migrating to the surface of the steel. It did cross my mind that some of bluing/purpling seen on pistols maybe related. Just a Saturday musing.
 
I've seen the plum color ( and not often) on Ruger 77 rifles. I don't recall ever seeing it on a handgun. I guess I'm not the curious type as I never wondered what caused it.
 
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