What determines whether a Model 52 will work reliably with different ammo?

[mikemyers]

I entered a thread many weeks ago about a Model 52 that didn't fire reliably. Thanks to some wonderful people here (Especially Don!!!!), the issues got checked, one by one, and. we found the culprit - the plunger under the rear sight, that is part of the magazine disconnect mechanism.

With what I consider good new ammunition, the gun now fires very reliably. I got several boxes of Magtech, and they work perfectly.

I'm puzzled by something we discovered today. As I said, this 52 now fires very reliably. Another fellow at the range had a box of Winchester cases that were reloaded, and while several of them didn't want to load smoothly into my gun, they all eventually fired reliably. No misfires, and no light-strikes.

There was another fellow at the range who had tried to fix my M-52 before I bought it. He reloads ammo for many people at the club. He had a box of random ammo, all 38 Special. When I loaded his ammo, it was as if nothing had ever gotten fixed on my gun - not a single round fired, and all the rounds showed "light strikes" on the primer. This was my original problem.

Doing things the other way 'round, all of our ammo fired fine in his gun. We then tried his ammo in a revolver, and while it fired, we decided that some of the primers might be a little high.


Two questions. First, what might be an issue as to why his reloads didn't work in my gun? The gun seems to do the same thing it did before we fixed it - but only with this person's ammo. If the rounds weren't seeing properly in the chamber, could this be causing a light strike and failure to fire?

Second question - is there a guide someplace as to how to "tune a magazine" so ammo feeds best into an M-52? It seems to me that the top (first) round starts to go into the chamber, but gets stuck before it goes in very far. One of the fellows at the range suggested that maybe the "tabs" at the top of the magazine need to be bent in slightly, so the round doesn't go so "high". He also suggested that the Model 52 prefers nickel cases rather than brass.... I thought it was the other way 'round.



I also have some Zero Manufacturing remanufactured ammo, and some new Federal ammo that will be delivered Tuesday.

I do know about the restriction that nothing should extend beyond the end of the case, or ammo won't load into a Model 52. Are there other similar warning about things to watch for?

 

[Willyboy]

Mod 52

I bought a used model 52 that came with a magazine. That magazine feels
tighter to load than a couple of other magazines I bought later. So I think the
original magazine has had the lips adjusted. That magazine also seems to feed more reliably than the other magazines I bought later. Willyboy

 

[Tom S.]

The rounds that were reloaded and failed to fire could have a couple of issues. Failing to seat the primers properly is one, and using some of the cheap import primers could be another. All primers are not created equal.

As for the mags, there is nothing printed specific to the Model 52 mag that I'm aware of, though there is for 45 acp mags (Brownell's even has tools/fixtures for working on 45 mags). Before trying to tweak one, I'd give it a good cleaning and light oiling. Some failure feeding isn't mag related at all, but a result of inconsistent/limp wrist holding by the person firing the gun.

One last thought - I hope all the ammo you were trying was mid-range wad cutter loads, as that is what this pistol was designed to use.

 

[rolandj]

Only have two mags. for my 52-1 and have found that if the bullet is not seated flush with the rim of the casing they will sometimes get stuck in the mag.. Because of this I check the reloads I buy and make sure the bullets are seated flush before using them. I have no reloading equipment so I just use a vice very carefully to make sure the bullet is seated. This is time consuming, but it works for me.

 

[H Richard]

I was shown a trick many years ago by a S&W executive, to trim the cases about .0010 below official case length, then seat the bullets to the official length. This leaves about .0010 of soft lead above case rim, (taper crimped .003) and it seemed to slide up the ramp and feed very reliably. I assume it was because the lead was softer and slicker than the brass cases.

 

[Jim Watson]

High primers will definitely cause misfires and they are very easy to turn out on a Dillon.

MY M52 likes a roll crimp; a taper crimped wadcutter is not reliable.

 

[mikemyers]

From a lot of searching, I found some additional information here:
Model 52 jams *Solved*

This is what I am about to print out, to store with my Model 52 tech information, and from a quick measure, I see my magazines need adjustment. Anyone know the part numbers of the Model 52 magazine adjustment tools on Brownell's?

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Pull your slide , snap a loaded round under extractor . Give slide a good shake or two . If loaded round stays put your extractor tension is fine . New mag springs can't hurt & very well may solve your issue.

I'd also check distance between mag lips front pair should be .356 ID between lips, back ones should be .328 - .348 . It looks to me that your mag is releasing round too late & it's hitting top of chamber .
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What I learned from my experience is there were two primary causes for failure to feed..

1) The clearance between the magazine follower pin and the sides of the gun frame is very minimal. The most problematic place is on the upper rib where the top grip screw is. If you have failure to feed between rounds 3 & 4, you will have to fix that problem. You can either shorten the pin in the magazine slightly or you can file a small chamfer on the bottom of that rib in the frame to prevent the pin from catching on it.

2) The magazines are way off on the timing of when the flange of the case is allowed to rise up out of the magazine. For me this was a problem on two new magazines. To determine it I had to cycle a lot of ammo through the gun by manually cycling it and watching the cartridge ride up and feed. The area to modify was the vertical area about 1/3 the way in from the back side of the magazine. If you push a bullet forward with your finger (just as the slide does) you can see how the bullet moves forward a certain distance then as the flange hits this area, the back end of the bullet is allowed to rise up. If this area is too far forward, the nose of the bullet rises up too high to follow the feed ramp into the chamber. I filed mine back a little at a time till it worked reliably. The same can probably be fixed by attempting to bend the magazine to change the timing a bit but I was not able to achieve good results with only bending.
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Problem Solved! I measured the openings in my two magazines.
Mag 1 front .370, rear .330-.338
Mag 2 front .363, rear .227-.339

I set the front of the mags into .356 just as Andy had said in the above post, and I could immediately see where the problem was.

I didn't have enough tension on the front of the mags and when the case moved forward to where the rim was in the open section between the front and back lips my case would pop up out of the front of the mag. Now with enough tension it's held in line as it gets stripped from the mag.
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[Sevens]

There are four guys in my close circle of gun dudes that own 52's. I'm proud to say that I had my first and it was me that convinced them to get theirs. Among the four of us, the count is eight different Model 52 pistols, all dash-2, running from about 1971 clear through to my go-to three alpha TZT-prefix gun, likely from the very end of the model in 1993.

I will estimate (pretty close to dead on) that our group totals just a hair under 30 total magazines.

Across 8 of these guns and 30 of these magazines, a slight adjustment of the mag feed lips, ensuring that the follower pin rides properly in it's channel AND a known ammo, and we have 98-99% function success. The ammo is simple, it is brass that has never been trimmed or altered, sized, flared, 148gr swaged hollow-base wadcutter loaded flush over either 2.7 or 2.8gr Bullseye, a light roll crimp.

When we do ^THAT^, all 8 guns run perfectly well.

When a new magazine is introduced, if it causes trouble, the solution is easy. Grab a known trouble free mag, measure the distance between feed lips at multiple points using a dial caliper, then bend the new mag until it is very similar in dimensions.

Across eight different pistols, it's never been more complicated than that. One of the guns did give extraction failures, that was rectified with a used 52-2 extractor from Numrich.

 

[mikemyers]

...........then bend the new mag until it is very similar in dimensions.......

Thanks!! From the previous discussion, I have what should be a good set of dimensions, and the magazine I will work on first is much wider than what was suggested.

Someone mentioned a tool for bending the lips - does such a tool still exist? If so, I'll buy one. If not, I'll try to find an appropriate pair of pliers.


Hmm, disregard that - by trying various pliers and ways of doing this, I was finally able to get the gap down to 0.348", and a tiny bit of pressure the other way got it to 0.356", the recommended gap, for the front. Unloaded rounds now snap in easily, and cycle through the gun perfectly. Will try this at the range tomorrow.