Bill Bates
Member
Here is an Evaluators Ltd. stamped holster but it has never been used from what I can tell. It came with this Model 19 which has also seen almost no use.
what holsters did the F.B.I. use with there 3.5 27
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digi-shots
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I've been told they also used SD Myres holsters..
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anyone have any pics of what holsters the F.B.I. agents used with there 3.5in pre 27 and 27's? would like to pair one up with my pre 27
For the most part, I think the official FBI purchases were not 3.5 inch .357s. I think the FBI purchases were 5 inch.
On the other hand, a goodly number of agents bought, with private funds, .357s in 3.5 and 4 inch (Frank Baughman had a four inch, and other agents followed his lead).
Period pictures seem to show agents using Tom Threepersons type or the 457 from Heiser. S.D. Myres of El Paso was known to supply some of the agents' holsters in addition to Heiser.
As the purchase of .357s was often with personal funds, the holsters were also purchased privately, thus there was probably no standard for the short-barreled .357s.
The FBI holster order shown is courtesy of Larry Wack of the Historical GMen web site.
Note that the FBI issue revolver at the time was the Colt Police Positive with 4 inch barrel. The FBI had also purchased a number of Colt .38 Super Government Model 1911 pistols. This pre-dated the ".357" Magnum. The FBI was, however, using the .38/44 ammo in their revolvers as Colt certified the Police Positive and Detective Special for the load.
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Dave T
Member
As a side bar kind of comment, I can't help but notice all these open topped, simple leather holsters (simple in design, not quality) carried by Federal Agents and compare them to the overly complicated "snatch proof" holsters that are all the range in LE circles today. Did the bad guys get that much tougher, or did those LEOs from years ago know something (or have something) that's missing today?
When I was a LE firearms instructor I never met anyone who could draw quickly from one of those retention holsters.
Dave
When I was a LE firearms instructor I never met anyone who could draw quickly from one of those retention holsters.
Dave
Those high retention holsters would have got me killed several times. When you're watching the muzzle of the BG's gun coming to bear on your chest, you don't want to be pushin' buttons to get your's loose.
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This is a very astute observation. Bill Jordan's holster design had a safety strap that could be snapped three ways: (1) strap over hammer for retention; (2) strap swiveled down so it wrapped around the front of the holster to allow the brass snap to show; or, (3) snapped completely out of the way in the back of the holster. Method 3 is how he kept it reasoning that the need for quick use might not allow time to unsnap, but there was always time to snap up before running or climbing onto a box car, etc.
NYPD's standard revolver holster did not have a snap right up to the day they went to 9mm pistols, and what retention there was depended upon a leather "shelf" catching on the edge of the cylinder. You just did not ever hear of gun grabs with those. Nor of officers being shot with their own revolver.
I believe that in the old days, anyone who was fool enough to grab for an officer's gun was going to get shot dead. The same for fleeing felons. Legal to shoot them dead. In the back. Running away. You heard that right. I am old enough to remember when that was completely legal and very few people thought anything about it. There was a fairly decent outcry when the federal court decision came down outlawing that practice. (That is one reason that we must remember to judge shootings by the standards of the time, not by today's standards.)
Quite frankly, there would be far fewer attempts to disarm officers today if officers were still large, strong, tall, etc., as imposing size alone often deters criminals. In addition, if it were legal to shoot someone the way it used to be, far fewer of these (clears throat, thinks about, but declines to use a "not-nice" term) poor unfortunates would be disrespectful to, or challenge, our police officers, who do not, under any circumstances, deserve such treatment.
I positively despise any holster design that is assembled using an abundance of screws and other hardware. Such designs are, in my opinion, unnecessarily heavy, bulky, and prone to failure. The release mechanisms on many of these duty holsters are a joke. I am especially suspicious of holster bodies that are "bolted on" to the belt loop or hanger, as they are sometimes called. That way, when the screws fall out, the holster is left in one location and when the officer reaches for his weapon, he gets "a handful of belt hanger."
I suppose the officers feel more comfortable with a holster that is difficult to use, or else they would complain, and it is their choice, even if it would not be my choice. They have to wear these unfortunate things, so I suppose I really cannot complain as I do not have to do so.
But, yes - you are right - holsters used by police and FBI used to be simpler. They still should be, in my opinion.
Ken Null can make a holster that will pass the standard retention test without the need for any safety straps. He does it with handfitting and careful hand molding. So much so you can tell the model of pistol from the detailed molding even with an empty holster. With modern presses, synthetic materials, etc., it is a mystery why bigger companies cannot do so.
Any holster with straps, bolts, nuts, or that comes with tools, such as Allen or Hex wrenches is to be avoided at all costs. There are plenty of ways to accomplish good retention without any gimmicks, especially with modern materials, synthetics, molding, etc.
We cannot go back "to the good old days," but we sure can go back to "good old holsters."
EDIT: I re-read your post, and wholeheartedly agree with your observation that you have never met anyone who can draw fast from "one of those [retention] holsters." I know several who claim they can, but when asked to demonstrate, they politely, or sometimes not so politely, decline.
The only person that I am aware of who can draw fast from one of these retention holsters is Bill Rogers, who works (I suppose he still does) for Safariland. He started the retention holster trend as he said that when he was an FBI agent, he once ran across the street, and his weapon made it there first, or words to that effect. The picture below is one of his early retention holsters. Seems that times have changed. Or, something has.
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I have a Lawrence holster made specifically for a 3-1/2 Model 27; model 34VJ/529. It is a pigskin covered holster with a hammer guard. The 1967 Lawrence catalog stated the holster was a: "FBI style extra quick draw holster that carries high on the belt, pitching gun butt forward". Huge thanks to "buckspen" for providing information about my holster.
handejector
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Jerry Campbell carried his Reg Mag in a Myres.
Lots more pics here- SPF - FBI Gun Collection of Jerry Campbell
FBI Agent Joe Couch carried his Mag in a Myres. Pics attached below.
Lots more pics here- SPF - FBI Gun Collection of Jerry Campbell
FBI Agent Joe Couch carried his Mag in a Myres. Pics attached below.
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bobcat
US Veteran
I see these guys firing .357 magnums and Thompson's with no hearing protection and have to believe their ears were shot for days after, and the long term effects unbelievable. Very cool old photos tho...
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What was that you said?
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Pig Hunter
Member
I did a quick google for a description or picture of a Sloan holster and it seems the two main features that make it distinctive are the hammer shield and a pressure retention against the frame by being able to adjust the welt, at the top of the holster and having a screw to hold the front, back, and welt in the desired position. All well conceived modifications in my opinion. Mark
Texas Star
US Veteran
My HS class visited the Dallas field office in the early 1960's. Most agents had the issue Colt Official Police (NOT Police Positive or Police Positive Special) or S&W M-10's, all four-inch barrels. One who visited our school to talk on Career Day said that he owned a M-49 Bodyguard, and often carried it in a coat pocket in winter. I was also told this about snubs when my father and brothers and I visited the FBI HQ in Wash., D.C. We saw a firing demo on the range in that building, inc. a Thompson SMG.
The only .357 I saw in the Dallas field office was a five-inch M-27 or pre-27. It had a wonderful action job or the factory had done a fine job on it. I compared it to the feel of the action on my only revolver at the time, a Webley MK VI. The agent guiding us was amused at the comparison. Mind you, that Webley was a standard service gun. I've since handled some of their WG models that had hand-honed actions, and they were very smooth, as were their Wilkinson models. Anyway, those S&W's at that field office were probably my first exposure to S&W revolvers in person. I was impressed.
I read the books for young adults by C.B. Colby, and he had at least one about the FBI.The guns shown were Colt Official Police ones. I don't know the ratio of Colt to S&W, but both were used, officially.
When I asked in the 1970's, I was told that an agent could buy and carry any all-steel S&W in either blue or stainless steel. Nickel was NOT authorized. Calibers were .38 Special or .357 Magnum. Magnum ammo was to be authorized by the Asst. Special Agent in Charge of a field office. I presume that he or the actual SAC didn't have to ask permission... The .357 ammo was Winchester's 145 grain Silvertip.
We have a member who seldom posts, but who was a detective with a police dept. in a Dallas suburb. I met him once back then, and he had begun carrying a Glock after feeling undergunned when surveilling Asian gangs. (Had been wearing a snub M-36, if memory serves) This member posted awhile back that he had personal knowledge of how the Silvertip load had performed in shootings by Dallas police, who also issued it to their officers who preferred to carry .357's. He said without elaboration that results had been very positive; the load killed quite well. DPD also issued the lead Plus P .38 SWC-HP used by the FBI. I think they both used Winchester at the time, but brand may have varied with bids. That load also worked well. One Dallas cop killed six men in separate shootings with it, using an issued M-64. I believe that he usually worked in an area of town where shootings were more likely than in others.
I assisted an FBI agent in looking for a fugitive about 1975. He had a heavy-barreled M-10 in a holster that was about halfway to a pancake style, but cut low with a slot at the top. I used to know the name of that holster. This guy was pretty fresh out of the academy and that was what he had been issued. He admitted to not knowing a lot about guns. His spare ammo was in a pouch that held two rounds per pocket, for six total.
If anyone is interested, my gun at the time was a personally owned M-64 Heavy Barrel loaded with the FBI ammo, carried in a Safariland M-29, a very fine holster which I often used along with the similar Bianchi Model 5BHL. These are "thumb-break" designs, otherwise much like the Threepersons. I didn't want anything more complex, for the reasons given in above posts.
I read as a teen that agents were trained to run with their elbow held against their holster, to avoid the gun falling out. It certainly makes sense, as they often wore holsters with no retaining strap.
In considering FBI holsters and guns, remember that govt. agencies buy goods based on cost bids and the individual agents who were seriously interested in firearms often bought their own equipment. I don't think the Colt .38 Super Autos lasted too long, and .45 autos were not allowed. I read in a book that agents were taught that autos were unreliable, and one showed the author that the gun could be prevented from firing if a thug pushed back on the muzzle, shoving the gun out of battery. He neglected to note that a hand grasping a revolver cylinder could also prevent it firing. More recently, some have asserted that a Beretta 9mm auto can be foiled by releasing the slide when the gun is pointed at the offender. I have a Model 92FS and predict fatal results for anyone trying that on me. These gun disabling tricks seldom work in real life, however much they impress a naive author. I'm more concerned about disarming techniques by a trained man.
Basically, almost any steel (blue or stainless) S&W .38 or .357 and suitable holsters may have been carried by FBI agents. Authorized Colts were the Official Police and the Detective Special. If they used any Police Positives, as has been several times stated by a poster above, I'm sure they were actually Police Positive Specials, which take the .38 Special load and have a longer frame than does the actual Police Positive. If they bought any, it was in the 1930's, soon after agents were authorized to go armed. If, as stated above, they used .38-44 ammo in those light guns, recoil must have been hefty. Colt did at one time authorize that load, but any extensive use of it would prematurely wear guns. Later, Colt said that Plus P loads (which are usually milder) required factory inspection after 3,000 rounds in steel frames and after 1,000 rounds if the gun was light alloy, as with the Cobra and Agent. Cylinder timing and endshake are both advanced with heavy use of powerful loads, and Colt's timing wears faster than on S&W and Ruger guns.
If the Bureau used .38-44 ammo, they seem to have gone to std. ammo fairly soon. I suspect that many new agents had trouble qualifying with hot ammo. When female agents joined the Bureau, they sued for and won permission to carry J-frame guns, as the K and N frames were often too big for their hands.
FBI use of autoloaders is a different subject. I'll just say here that .40 Glocks are now routine, with some SIG 9mm and .45 guns "grandfathered" in. Their brief use of S&W 10mm's was not a success.
I hope this anwsers the question about FBI revolvers and holsters. The holster shown in kids' books about the Bureau in the 1950's and 60's was the Heiser shown in this thread. That was what I saw in the Dallas field office. Heiser made good holsters. I wore one for a time as a USAF cop. But when agents bought personal holsters, Myres was very popular. I'd be surprised if some enthusiasts didn't buy Gaylord leather. Chic Gaylord had a model designed specifically for Feds. It was just his version of the Heiser, improved with thinner leather and a higher ride on the belt. I think it may have had the thumb-break feature. I'd have to look it up in his book, if anyone cares.
The only .357 I saw in the Dallas field office was a five-inch M-27 or pre-27. It had a wonderful action job or the factory had done a fine job on it. I compared it to the feel of the action on my only revolver at the time, a Webley MK VI. The agent guiding us was amused at the comparison. Mind you, that Webley was a standard service gun. I've since handled some of their WG models that had hand-honed actions, and they were very smooth, as were their Wilkinson models. Anyway, those S&W's at that field office were probably my first exposure to S&W revolvers in person. I was impressed.
I read the books for young adults by C.B. Colby, and he had at least one about the FBI.The guns shown were Colt Official Police ones. I don't know the ratio of Colt to S&W, but both were used, officially.
When I asked in the 1970's, I was told that an agent could buy and carry any all-steel S&W in either blue or stainless steel. Nickel was NOT authorized. Calibers were .38 Special or .357 Magnum. Magnum ammo was to be authorized by the Asst. Special Agent in Charge of a field office. I presume that he or the actual SAC didn't have to ask permission... The .357 ammo was Winchester's 145 grain Silvertip.
We have a member who seldom posts, but who was a detective with a police dept. in a Dallas suburb. I met him once back then, and he had begun carrying a Glock after feeling undergunned when surveilling Asian gangs. (Had been wearing a snub M-36, if memory serves) This member posted awhile back that he had personal knowledge of how the Silvertip load had performed in shootings by Dallas police, who also issued it to their officers who preferred to carry .357's. He said without elaboration that results had been very positive; the load killed quite well. DPD also issued the lead Plus P .38 SWC-HP used by the FBI. I think they both used Winchester at the time, but brand may have varied with bids. That load also worked well. One Dallas cop killed six men in separate shootings with it, using an issued M-64. I believe that he usually worked in an area of town where shootings were more likely than in others.
I assisted an FBI agent in looking for a fugitive about 1975. He had a heavy-barreled M-10 in a holster that was about halfway to a pancake style, but cut low with a slot at the top. I used to know the name of that holster. This guy was pretty fresh out of the academy and that was what he had been issued. He admitted to not knowing a lot about guns. His spare ammo was in a pouch that held two rounds per pocket, for six total.
If anyone is interested, my gun at the time was a personally owned M-64 Heavy Barrel loaded with the FBI ammo, carried in a Safariland M-29, a very fine holster which I often used along with the similar Bianchi Model 5BHL. These are "thumb-break" designs, otherwise much like the Threepersons. I didn't want anything more complex, for the reasons given in above posts.
I read as a teen that agents were trained to run with their elbow held against their holster, to avoid the gun falling out. It certainly makes sense, as they often wore holsters with no retaining strap.
In considering FBI holsters and guns, remember that govt. agencies buy goods based on cost bids and the individual agents who were seriously interested in firearms often bought their own equipment. I don't think the Colt .38 Super Autos lasted too long, and .45 autos were not allowed. I read in a book that agents were taught that autos were unreliable, and one showed the author that the gun could be prevented from firing if a thug pushed back on the muzzle, shoving the gun out of battery. He neglected to note that a hand grasping a revolver cylinder could also prevent it firing. More recently, some have asserted that a Beretta 9mm auto can be foiled by releasing the slide when the gun is pointed at the offender. I have a Model 92FS and predict fatal results for anyone trying that on me. These gun disabling tricks seldom work in real life, however much they impress a naive author. I'm more concerned about disarming techniques by a trained man.
Basically, almost any steel (blue or stainless) S&W .38 or .357 and suitable holsters may have been carried by FBI agents. Authorized Colts were the Official Police and the Detective Special. If they used any Police Positives, as has been several times stated by a poster above, I'm sure they were actually Police Positive Specials, which take the .38 Special load and have a longer frame than does the actual Police Positive. If they bought any, it was in the 1930's, soon after agents were authorized to go armed. If, as stated above, they used .38-44 ammo in those light guns, recoil must have been hefty. Colt did at one time authorize that load, but any extensive use of it would prematurely wear guns. Later, Colt said that Plus P loads (which are usually milder) required factory inspection after 3,000 rounds in steel frames and after 1,000 rounds if the gun was light alloy, as with the Cobra and Agent. Cylinder timing and endshake are both advanced with heavy use of powerful loads, and Colt's timing wears faster than on S&W and Ruger guns.
If the Bureau used .38-44 ammo, they seem to have gone to std. ammo fairly soon. I suspect that many new agents had trouble qualifying with hot ammo. When female agents joined the Bureau, they sued for and won permission to carry J-frame guns, as the K and N frames were often too big for their hands.
FBI use of autoloaders is a different subject. I'll just say here that .40 Glocks are now routine, with some SIG 9mm and .45 guns "grandfathered" in. Their brief use of S&W 10mm's was not a success.
I hope this anwsers the question about FBI revolvers and holsters. The holster shown in kids' books about the Bureau in the 1950's and 60's was the Heiser shown in this thread. That was what I saw in the Dallas field office. Heiser made good holsters. I wore one for a time as a USAF cop. But when agents bought personal holsters, Myres was very popular. I'd be surprised if some enthusiasts didn't buy Gaylord leather. Chic Gaylord had a model designed specifically for Feds. It was just his version of the Heiser, improved with thinner leather and a higher ride on the belt. I think it may have had the thumb-break feature. I'd have to look it up in his book, if anyone cares.
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I read in a book that agents were taught that autos were unreliable, and one showed the author that the gun could be prevented from firing if a thug pushed back on the muzzle, shoving the gun out of battery. He neglected to note that a hand grasping a revolver cylinder could also prevent it firing.
FBI agents were still teaching those moves in the 60s, and I passed them along with others to HP recruits I trained, and other LEOs around the State in an Officer Survival Course in the 70s.
FBI agents were still teaching those moves in the 60s, and I passed them along with others to HP recruits I trained, and other LEOs around the State in an Officer Survival Course in the 70s.
Dave T
Member
Someone mentioned the Hank Sloan holster. The best one I ever saw was made by Milt Sparks, and I don't mean the present company but by Milt himself.
I was privileged to know Milt personally as well as another master holster maker, Bruce Nelson. Both of those fine gentleman told me they did not approve of straps, snaps or flaps for retention of the handgun. A proper designed and constructed holster would do so with out those encumbrances.
I've used (and occasionally still do) holsters by both of these makers and they are as fine as any other leather holsters you will ever see. They retain the gun through a surprising amount of physical activity yet presentation is as fast as you nervous system will allow. (smile)
Dave
I was privileged to know Milt personally as well as another master holster maker, Bruce Nelson. Both of those fine gentleman told me they did not approve of straps, snaps or flaps for retention of the handgun. A proper designed and constructed holster would do so with out those encumbrances.
I've used (and occasionally still do) holsters by both of these makers and they are as fine as any other leather holsters you will ever see. They retain the gun through a surprising amount of physical activity yet presentation is as fast as you nervous system will allow. (smile)
Dave
Hi:
I attended a FBI Training School in 1962 / 1963 era. I was a "Newbie" and came to the first day wearing a Colt Cobra .38spl in a "Cross Draw" Holster ! After that first day, for the rest of my 45 year career I wore strong side "FBI Style".
At that time the FBI issue side arm was a blued, six shot, four inch Colt or Smith and Wesson Revolver. The FBI Training Agent stated that many more Colt Revolver were returned for maintenance than Smith and Wesson Revolvers.
I attended a FBI Training School in 1962 / 1963 era. I was a "Newbie" and came to the first day wearing a Colt Cobra .38spl in a "Cross Draw" Holster ! After that first day, for the rest of my 45 year career I wore strong side "FBI Style".
At that time the FBI issue side arm was a blued, six shot, four inch Colt or Smith and Wesson Revolver. The FBI Training Agent stated that many more Colt Revolver were returned for maintenance than Smith and Wesson Revolvers.
hotrod150
Member
This reminds me of the (original) True Grit movie- Rooster Cogburn is telling how many men he had killed as a marshall, "stopping men in flight, or defending myself".
keith44spl
Member
Holster & cartridge carrier.
Just throwing this out there.
Many Thanks for posting that photo.
I'm liken the looks of that so much.....
I'm a thinkin I'll just cobble up one for my own-self.
Su Amigo,
Dave
Hey Donnie,
How's that retirement treatin ya? Good I hope.
Did ya ever find out any thing about those belt buckles from corrections?
All My Best,
Dave
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keith44spl
Member
Hey Dave, Make two of them.
Christmas times a coming!
We'll discuss the finer points here in a few days
.
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