What is this rifle?

[walnutred]

I've not got the rifle in hand yet so the obvious questions of center fire, rim fire and bore diameter I cannot answer.

The seller sold it as a Russian M1867 Krnka rifle, which it obviously is not. This has no markings that the seller could see. The bore looks to be about 30-38 caliber from the pictures. I believe this was a target rifle made somewhere in eastern Europe.

Frankly I bought this rifle because A, I like odd firearms and B, after looking at the pictures my wife said: If it's under a grand buy it and I'll say it's your birthday present.

I found this rifle very interesting. After 50+ years in trading firearms I seldom run into anything that I haven't handled before. The last unusual rifle I came across was a M1862 Chassepot, which the owner wouldn't part with. I have no idea what this rifle is but I believe when it was made it was a good quality rifle. It was somebody's target rifle.

So what did I buy.

 

[Muley Gil]

It looks somewhat like a Ball & Williams made Ballard rifle. Maybe one that has been modified???

The Warner patent is similar.

 

[LVSteve]

I'm trying to get my head around that weird strap piece that houses what, the chamber, the firing pin? I'm thinking that piece indicates that this is a conversion of some kind of musket so that it operates like the Ballard design. The hinged piece sits where the lock used to be.

Looking at the frame, I don't see evidence of a pivot for what looks like a falling block action. Looking at the trigger guard, I think it is a fake falling block of some kind.

ETA:

Poking around the Web reveals that either this gun, or one very much like it was discussed on Reddit. No pictures, but the post mentions a brass receiver and out of period screws holding what looks like a modification of the Whitney Phoenix hinged breechblock.

 

[walnutred]

It does kind of look like a variation of the Whitney Phoenix design. I'll know more when I have the rifle in hand but from the pictures I see no indication that this was either a rolling bock conversion or a ML conversion.

The seller said there were no markings on the rifle. If this is true then I think it's American made, not European made. That also indicates to me this was not a production gun. If not for the target sights and small caliber I'd almost say this was a pre-production model made to prove an action design. Brass or bronze would be easier to cast and form into a receiver than iron.

The last picture almost looks like the rifle has a detachable trigger mechanism. There is what looks like a seam in front of the trigger guard bow and what looks like a push button on the left side of the receiver.

 

[red9]

My guess is a home-made attempt at a Snider-type conversion. If that's the case, no clue as to the donor. The chamber relief at 12:00 suggests rimfire. I am also a fan of oddballs and this one appeals to me.

Bob

 

[walnutred]

red9, I'm not sure if that is a chamber relief at 12:00 or a notch. There is no extractor that I can see and that may be a thumbnail notch to help extract spent cases. Be interesting to see what the chamber actually is.

 

[2152hq]

I think a one-of. Made buy a talented mechanic/gunsmith. Even in the late 1800's many had access to lathes and mills.

The frame could be cast from a mould using a wooden model as the form. Sand casting brass was very common and working with it is easy.

The design looks somewhat like the CW Greene Carbine action.
But in a way the outline almost seems to have been somewhat of an interpretation taken from the original Ballard.
Both had their start in the 1860's.
The early Ballard design had an outside extractor under the bbl ahead of the frame. Push backwards to extract the case.
Maybe the builder didn't see the need for one on a target rifle.



The Snider style breech was not uncommon for early BP firearms,,the Greene used it for one.
Lots of Flobert actioned rifles and Pistols used the swing over Breechblock Snider style breech as well.
Low pressure cartridges and sometimes the hammer has a notch in the front face of it that engages the breech to keep it closed upon firing as well.

It's easy to make and this one didn't use a cast in place bolster on the frame to hold the hinge pin that the breech block pivots on,,as the Whitney did.
Instead the block hinge is a separate steel component screw attached to the RH side of the frame.
Easier to make that way.

Nice plain Mid-Range Target Rifle styling.
The trigger guard looks like an off the shelf offering from the late percussion muzzle loader era. The makers of the time often bought their 'parts' just as many kit makers do today.
The rifle just has a taste of 'home made' to it IMO. Not in a bad way either.

Nice, unique rifle..If I'd seen it at a show or shop, I'd have certainly stopped to look it over. If the price was right, it'd come home with me too.

 

[walnutred]

Thanks for the suggestions. I still don't know for sure what this rifle really is. However the kind folks at the Cody Firearm's Museum found it interesting enough that they are assisting with research.

 

[buffalorifle]

I don't know much about most of it, but that trigger guard looks just like the brass ones on my Thompson Center Hawkin muzzleloaders.

 

[babyloui]

Whatever it is it's definitely cool maybe contact the NRA museum they might have some information

 

[walnutred]

Whatever it is it's definitely cool maybe contact the NRA museum they might have some information

I'm sending pictures to the NRA museum as well. The Cody museum replied so quickly though I was a little surprised. When they say they have to "research" something then you know it's unusual and obscure.

 

[gunbarrel]

We have ASSRA (American Single Shot Rifle Association) matches at our Club and they shoot weird-looking antique rifles like that. This is just a SWAG on my part, but it looks similar to a Ballard Sporting Rifle. Go to their website (assra.com), join the forum and show them a few good pictures of your rifle. I bet they know what it is. Those guys are fanatical about their discipline. Good luck, and let us know if they could help you.

 

[walnutred]

We have ASSRA (American Single Shot Rifle Association) matches at our Club and they shoot weird-looking antique rifles like that. This is just a SWAG on my part, but it looks similar to a Ballard Sporting Rifle. Go to their website (assra.com), join the forum and show them a few good pictures of your rifle. I bet they know what it is. Those guys are fanatical about their discipline. Good luck, and let us know if they could help you.

I agree, it does look a lot like a Ballard except for the action being a swing block. I appreciate the suggestion but I posted pictures on that forum the same time I originally posted photos here. Their suggestions pretty much mirrored the ideas here.

 

[0le]

The rifle just has a taste of 'home made' to it IMO.

Oh no, one of those terrible, scary "ghost guns".