What is wrong with the .40

[bountyhunter]

The 9mm at that time was not what it is today. Hollow points were just coming in and they were no where as good or consistent as they are today.

I agree and if the FBI wanted to make the argument that:

Today's 9mm has improved enough that we think it has adequate stopping power and we believe that it will give improved accuracy due to reduced recoil.

Then I would say OK, maybe that's valid. They have a lot of femal officers with small hands and their agents rarely practice with weapons so maybe their particular conditions make 9mm a better choice FOR THEM. My big problem is they are claiming the new 9mm is somehow better than the others and that just isn't true. It may be a better choice for their specific conditions, but it isn't better in general.

 

[bountyhunter]

I don't buy the argument that it's woman related. They always seems to be the internet "scapegoat" for anything firearms related. I can see it being a problem one time but now it's just getting ridiculous. Women couldn't handle the 10mm so we went to the 40. Women can't handle the 40 (25 years later) so we are switching to the 9mm.

Maybe that story is more acceptable than one where the core problem is their people don't spend enough time practicing to gain baseline shooting proficiency? Anyway, I shoot with my wife and I do know that with small hands the full sized guns are not easy to handle so I believe that's a valid point. As to whether that's the core issue for poor shooting, I agree it's a scapegoat.

 

[Rustyt1953]

Absolutely nothing.

 

[Arik]

I don't think they are claiming it's better than others just that when it comes to modern self defense ammo it's just as good. Yes some bullets are a little faster and some a little bigger but they all expend fully (in a proven design) and penetrate 12 inches

 

[rwsmith]

you can say that again....

Two things the way I see it:

1) I don't like a .40 in a sub-compact plastic pistol. It kicks too hard for my old, weak, right hand and my severely handicapped left arm. But in a compact or full-size plastic pistol... or any all-metal pistol... it's fine.

2) An amazing number of people have a serious mental block about taking on a third centerfire pistol cartridge for cost, storage and/or reloading complexity reasons... so a lot of .40 pistols can be hard to re-sell for top money if/when the time comes to do so. Of course, on the other hand, they can be excellent bargains if you are in the market to buy.

I look for 9mms on Gunbroker and mostly .40s show up in the search. I say, "Hey, that's a good price!". Then I'm disappointed because it isn't a 9.

 

[federali]

In Search of the Perfect Round

Law enforcement, in general, has been chasing its tail for decades regarding "the best" cartridge for duty use. Each time a tragic failure occurred, such as the infamous Miami shootout, the powers-that-be bemoaned the existing duty cartridge and begged for something with more stopping power while their departments were simultaneously phasing out minimum height requirements and encouraging women to join their ranks.

Yet, street failures, such as Miami or Newhall CA (1970) were primarily failures in judgment and tactics while the Newhall incident also pointed out significant training failures. The point is, even if these deceased officers had been armed with the .40 S&W, the outcome probably would have been the same although agents Grogan and Dove would probably be alive today if that Winchester Silvertip 9mm, had penetrated a bit deeper and had reached Mike Platt's heart, a 47-yard shot as I recall.

I own four 9mms and two .45s. Adding the .40 means buying dies and reloading components in a new caliber. Besides, agencies returning to the 9mm would not be doing so if that cartridge was not up to the job. Should I ever find myself in a bad situation, I'm confident the any of my existing handguns are more than adequate for the task provided I do my part.

 

[Faulkner]

To put it somewhat into perspective, you should probably understand that the .40 S&W was in part advocated following the 1986 FBI Miami shootout in which the agents 9mm with the famed Winchester Silvertip rounds failed so miserably.

 

[J. R. WEEMS]

THE 40 -

Well, I am a bit late on this on I guess but I just love to shoot, and am a big fan of the 10mm, as well as the 41mag. One of the many who lost favor because of the folks the FBI, and others were forced to hire because of political correctness -- - many were just not up to the standards need, so-- the standards were lowered, thus putting those that were/are, up to the needed standards at risk, as well as themselves. That being said, I picked this one up because it just came my way-- Both barrels came with it and I was quick to take on a few more magazines. This is a no nonsense piece- and for my part well made. I suspect many of the ones that don't hold up in quality are part of the problem. I have had zero problem with this one.

 

[woodsltc]

Well after a couple thousand++ rounds through my two Glock-23's, I'm happy with the .40S&W.........just as it was designed to do it fills the niche between the 9mm & 45acp and will continue to do so.

Some folks can't adjust to the recoil of the .40S&W compared to the 9mm, but for those that can it provides a larger "hole" than the 9mm (with comparable bullets) and gives you more capacity than the 45acp-------that is why it was developed.

Is anything "wrong" with it ......NOPE, not in my opinion. It's just the "swing of the pendulum of thought" by Law Enforcement/Military trying to find a caliber that is reasonably effective and is easy enough for everyone to shoot.

If & when there is another incident where LE or Military find they are under -gunned then the pendulum will swing the other way again.

Just my opinion!!!

Don

 

[rwsmith]

No handgun is right for all situations.....

Law enforcement, in general, has been chasing its tail for decades regarding "the best" cartridge for duty use. Each time a tragic failure occurred, such as the infamous Miami shootout, the powers-that-be bemoaned the existing duty cartridge and begged for something with more stopping power while their departments were simultaneously phasing out minimum height requirements and encouraging women to join their ranks.

Yet, street failures, such as Miami or Newhall CA (1970) were primarily failures in judgment and tactics while the Newhall incident also pointed out significant training failures. The point is, even if these deceased officers had been armed with the .40 S&W, the outcome probably would have been the same although agents Grogan and Dove would probably be alive today if that Winchester Silvertip 9mm, had penetrated a bit deeper and had reached Mike Platt's heart, a 47-yard shot as I recall.

I own four 9mms and two .45s. Adding the .40 means buying dies and reloading components in a new caliber. Besides, agencies returning to the 9mm would not be doing so if that cartridge was not up to the job. Should I ever find myself in a bad situation, I'm confident the any of my existing handguns are more than adequate for the task provided I do my part.

Handguns are great for not to far range work. When criminal are behind cover or over a range of say 20 yards or so, or if they have protective gear, reach for a 9mm carbine or .223 rifle that can make accurate head shots from a distance.

 

[mtgianni]

I really like the 40. I am down to two 9mm's and 45's. One of each is a Ruger Blackhawk. I have a Kahr Cm that fits in my palm and is easily controllable with 165 gr loads. They are the only factory cartridges I buy. I have a Smith and Walther 99 that is a cast only gun. It shoots OK but not like the 45 Kimber. When you can get a 5 gallon of brass for a 40 for dirt cheap you find out how to make one run. It is a fun cartridge to shoot.

 

[Arik]

Handguns are great for not to far range work. When criminal are behind cover or over a range of say 20 yards or so, or if they have protective gear, reach for a 9mm carbine or .223 rifle that can make accurate head shots from a distance.

Not having rifles was part of the problem both in Miami and in California.

I'm not sure about the accurate head shots. Of course every situation is different but the 2 I mentioned. ....I don't think there would have been time or patience to carefully aim for the head of suspects who were moving and laying down a lot of fire. In California the 2 suspects shot 1100 rounds of 7.62x39 and 308 in roughly 30 min

 

[bountyhunter]

I don't think they are claiming it's better than others

That's EXACTLY what they claimed. Here are the summary points from their findings:

"· Contemporary projectiles (since 2007) have dramatically increased the terminal effectiveness of many premium line law enforcement projectiles (emphasis on the 9mm Luger offerings)

· 9mm Luger now offers select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI"

The FBI is Going 9mm: Here Comes the Science | The Loadout Room

They claim that the "emphasis" in improvement has been on 9mm and that has caused it to surpass other calibers. And if you believe that, I would like to rent you a bridge at very reasonable rates.......

 

[bountyhunter]

Law enforcement, in general, has been chasing its tail for decades regarding "the best" cartridge for duty use. Each time a tragic failure occurred, such as the infamous Miami shootout, the powers-that-be bemoaned the existing duty cartridge and begged for something with more stopping power while their departments were simultaneously phasing out minimum height requirements and encouraging women to join their ranks.

You could not be more accurate on that. And here is the latest "hot potato" which the FBI has to deal with, and this is THEIR OWN published finding:

"LEOs miss between 70 – 80 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident"

To be fair, hit rates in the 20 something percent range is typical for LE's. But look how that looks to the general public: about 3/4 of rounds fired sail to parts unknown. SCARY. But what's worse, shooting data is continuously tabulated and published and that means people in very high levels of the organization have to keep heaing about it. The FBI also pointed this out:


"The majority of FBI shooters are both FASTER in shot strings fired and more ACCURATE with shooting a 9mm Luger vs shooting a .40 S&W (similar sized weapons)"



So what is the solution:

Raise test standards.... I put that one in for a laugh.

Increase practice to raise proficiency. In case you didn't laugh.

BLAME THE GUN.

And as pointed out, blaming the gun is he tried and tested method used in the past.

 

[bountyhunter]

To put it somewhat into perspective, you should probably understand that the .40 S&W was in part advocated following the 1986 FBI Miami shootout in which the agents 9mm with the famed Winchester Silvertip rounds failed so miserably.

The .40SW did not exist following that incident. It simply started a drive for a hotter cartridge which spawned the 10mm which was rejected for a number of reasons. The .40SW was a cut down 10mm which gained wide acceptance because it dropped into existing service pistols so quickly and easily without a major redesign or new platform.

 

[bountyhunter]

I look for 9mms on Gunbroker and mostly .40s show up in the search. I say, "Hey, that's a good price!". Then I'm disappointed because it isn't a 9.

I wish I had seen some of those when I was buying my collection of .40 guns which in the vast majority of cases can be converted to 9mm with a drop in barrel..... as well as .357 SIG with a drop in barrel. I haven't noticed a "price gap" caused by the .40.

 

[Revolver-time]

If you're looking into one I'd recommend you shoot the model you're looking at first. If that's not possible at least something similar to get an idea.

I always had 40 off and on but when the great panic of 2011 hit 40 was what was mainly available. I found that the recoil is not bad on the Glock 22. Not much more than on the 17 and I can shoot it pretty fast and accurate.

Not really looking for another one. My 4006 works just fine. And with 165gr. store bought ammo it leads the field with one shot stops. Not that I would ever carry it as a ccw. I always wear a 1911. I have shot my 1911s so much I don't really aim anymore. Just point and that big ole 45 just goes where i'm looking.

 

[cmort666]

Might well have been. Over the years I've heard several comments that the 4006s were simply bad guns. I've never been that much into S&W autos, so I can't swear if its true or not.

From what I heard at the time, the 1076s were REALLY bad, with some of them locking up solid with a loaded round in the chamber. They couldn't be cleared without disassembly.

 

[shouldazagged]

I've owned two .40's, a Smith 411 and a 2nd generation G22. The 411 was okay, reliable, but didn't feel as good in my hand as the Glock, which was entirely reliable and soft-shooting for a .40. A woman I was dating at the time shot it better than I did. No problems with the recoil, and she had never fired a gun before.

I'm down to revolvers only now, but occasionally miss the G22. The .40 S&W round seems to have performed well in police shootings, but I'm an old non-LEO retiree satisfied with .38 Special +P nowadays. Just don't feel the need for the extra power.

 

[Ranger514]

The answer is "nothing," other than the fact that it's now considered out of vogue. I never experienced the "snappy" recoil others complain about in the caliber. I carried a Sig P229 .40 S&W for 20 years before I retired, and fired around 30 k rounds through it. It was accurate and dependable. I chose the .40 because it blended a larger caliber with a double stack magazine.

Before I retired in 2014, I saw the writing on the wall regarding cost and availability of .40 cal. ammo. I sold my personally owned .40 and downsized to 9mm for my primary HD and EDC. My 1911 and revolvers fill the gaps for other needs, but in reality, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the .40 S&W. I just don't need the extra expense involved.