What kind of velocities from 2" barrels....

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I have a model 36 and a friend just got a 442. I recently started reloading for .38 special again after a long lay off. I just got some 125 gr coated SWCs from Bayou. I also have some 140 gr jhps and I intend to get 125 gr jhp premium JHP bullets for defense type ammo. I'd like to make practice rounds with the 125 gr. SWCs to mimic the 125 gr. jhps. You guys that have measured these loads what velocities can be reasonably expected from a .38 +Ps out of a 2" barrel?

Ballistics by the inch shows some commercial ammo getting about 911 max with Cor-bon 125 gr jhp.

I loaded some practice rounds, probably 158 gr SWCs (What I had on hand) and if memory serves I got about under 600 to about 640 fps max. I thought, "Hmmmm, I'm going to have to jazz these rounds up a little or the bad guys will swat them out of the air with their hands." So I settled on 125 jhp to 135 grain (Speer Short Barrel Gold Dot IF I can find any) as the bullet most likely to succeed. I draw the line at 110 grain, I shoot 125 gr out of my 9mms, though I could be convinced to go that light for the sake of velocity.

What have you guys been able to do with this combination?
 
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Are you asking : What are typical vels of factory ammo ? What is highest possable vels within current SAAMI complient published data, from 2in bbl guns ? What are highest vels from either.38-44 era or older manuals such as an infamous Speer manual ? Or what would be "best" for a 2in ?
 
Realize that a 1 7/8" J frame revolver will yield less velocity than an
actual 2" revolver like the mod 10. Out of my 1 7/8" mod 60-7 Rem
125 gr Golden Saber +Ps chrono about 875 fps, Speer Gold Dot 125 gr
+Ps chrono about 850 fps. Rem 158 gr LHP +Ps chrono at about 800 fps
out of my 60. Read the Handloader magazine articles on the 38 spl by
Brian Pearce and you will learn that you can easily exceed the factory
velocities of +P ammo without exceeding pressure standards.
 
I don't use light bullets in a .38 Special, particularly a snub nose as the light bullets generally shoot low. With regard to 160 grain SWCs, muzzle velocities from a 2" barrel are usually 100 - 125 fps less than the same load fired from a 6" barrel.

I would suspect variances with light bullets would be in line with my figures but I have not chronographed such loads.
 
I have a oldie but goodie M49 all steel that hits 21 oz....
one of the girls in the family baught a 442 which she thought was "Cute" at 16 oz. ?

I have loaded maximum and minimum starter loads for these
two snub nose over three years and a few water jug test for some final loads.

I used the 110 JHP by Sierra, Remington, Winchester and Speer GD.
A Winchester with Red Dot at 630-716 cleared the M49 barrel
with a Cor-Bon dup. load hitting 958-1038fps.
Best speed for a fac. loading was around 866fps with light recoil
and ok accuracy.
I have a Hornady 110 XTP at 950fps set aside for four water jugs.
I am wondering if there may be over penetration with its heavy copper jacket?
I consider the little 110gr bare bones in the SD department.

I have tested the Winchester, Remington and Speer GD 125gr JHP.
The lowest speed that cleared the M49 was at 753-794 and the top speed was 918-953fps.
Most rags say that this bullet weight is the minimum weight for penetration and energy but
at 880fps and a ME of 215 needs a quality bullet to preform right.
At ten feet a 125gr Gold Dot crossed my screen and plowed through three water jugs to stop
1/2" into a back stop.
The nose had a light coat of white plastic on it with rifling but did not start to expand.
This "Hi-Vel" bullet needs 900fps plus.

The 140 XTP cleared the M49 barrel at 723-728fps.
A over load of w231 hit 846-939 for a K frame loading but it
will fit the 38 special J frame with just 5.2grs Maximum.
Full loads with this bullet weigh/design get radical in my M49
and you need to pay attention to your chrony if you have one.
Lyman's 5.3gr of Unique was a 100% loading but also gave me a pattern on paper that looked like
a .410 rather than a revolver at 866fps. My best target load was with 4.2grs of Red Dot.

The 158gr LRN bullet can start out in a J snub nose at a minimum
of 505-534fps with SR 4756 up to a Federal dup loading around 650fps
I use a 158gr LWC with its heavy crimp band for medium plus loadings.
Accuracy can be had with the fasted powders but....... medium to slow powders
were needed for +P loads and best accuracy with a heavy crimp.
Red Dot up to Unique would give 800fps or more but you do have to watch for pressure spikes.
One maximum test load in my "All Steel" J frame hit 948-970fps in just three of five test loads. I did not fire the last two.
861 is plenty...........822fps will work and even 800fps has a ME of 224, which is close to todays factory loadings.

Best target load in my M49.......
148gr HBwc with 2.7gr Bullseye (PF 93 )
125gr LRN Cowboy with most powders at 600fps. ( PF 75 )

If possible I carry factory SD ammo.
Good loading.
 
one of the girls in the family baught a 442 which she thought was "Cute" at 16 oz. ?
I can give you some specifics here.
The Speer 135gr SB +P is about 860fps out of any of several 442 I've chronoed. A 148gr DEWC will shoot to practically the same POI within any normal defense range, loaded with HP38 from 3gr on up to +P to match the feel of the defense load. I suspect your girl shooter will echo sentiments of my girls that the 3gr HP .38 under the 148gr wadcutter is all she needs as a practice load. 25 wadcutters and ending with 5 defense loads is a realistic practice session.
I once fired about 40 shots of my 158gr IDPA loads through a 442 shooting steel plates, and I will tell you the fun ended about halfway through.
 
It is all about gross weight.

My 21oz. M49 with a 125gr JHP at 890 has +/- 4.33 recoil while
a 15oz 642 with the same bullet at 890fps has 5.65 ft/lbs recoil.

My M49 158gr full, FBI load at 861fps has 5.92 ft/lbs of recoil.

Some shooters just don't like heavy recoil in light weight revolvers.
I would go to a K frame if needed.
 
Back in the "good old days" Jeff Cooper advocated a 158 gr SWC at 1000fps with a charge (which I do not remember) of Red Dot or Green Dot powder
 
No, yes, no, yes.....

Are you asking : What are typical vels of factory ammo ? What is highest possable vels within current SAAMI complient published data, from 2in bbl guns ? What are highest vels from either.38-44 era or older manuals such as an infamous Speer manual ? Or what would be "best" for a 2in ?

No, I have some good factory ammo and there is chrono'd data for the same.

Yes, I'm reloading, I'd like to get the most effective round from a 2" barrel in safe limits.

No, I don't care about .38 - 44 or Speer number 8 with aberrant data.

Yes. I'd like to find the 'best' load for SD out of 2" barrel. Most of the data on FBI and LEO service revolvers are based on a 4" typical issue handguns. I don't doubt that snubs work. I just want to dig deeper on what's best with a 2". How does weight, velocity, penetration and bullet performance pan out under those conditions?
 
This is excellent info, guys......

Thanks so much. That gives me a lot of really useful info.

I don't care about recoil in a small gun in defensive situations, I can take it. But I don't want to beat up myself or the gun in practice. If I can get the best to carry for the 'real thing' I can cook up something close to practice with.

Since this for 2" barrel and is subsequently very limited, I wonder if Speer 135 grain Short Barrel would be the best because a little more velocity doesn't matter much if the bullet doesn't perform. Finding those bullets though, will be a real challenge.:confused:

Those 550 to 650 fps rounds I put together to try out the guns at the range seemed awfully far away from the infamous 'FBI' load or anything that could be consistently effective against bad guys.:)

I have a 686 as one of my home defense guns and I keep very low end .357 rounds in jhp because I see no need to blow our ears out in a confined space and my rounds are at least as good as the best .38 special +P ammo. My 9mm guns are loaded 'hot' but not max.

Any loads that I come it with are going to be tested in the 686 first.
 
I consider 1000 fps.....

Back in the "good old days" Jeff Cooper advocated a 158 gr SWC at 1000fps with a charge (which I do not remember) of Red Dot or Green Dot powder

I think 1000 fps (I think the actual number was like 980 fps) is a magic threshold and if I could get that much out of a snub it would be great. The powder choice of either Red or Green Dot strikes me as unusual. I LIKE Red Dot, but I never thought of using it for hot loads. Realistically though, even BE and Titegroup are versatile enough to get some pretty hot loads when piled on even though it's best as a target powder.
 
Most factory +P 38spls are loaded to pressures that are well below
the 20,000 psi limit and the top charge handloads in manuals follow
suit. Brian Pearce obviously has pressure testing equipment because
in his articles he states that all loads listed were pressure tested. A
2" K frame will easily handle actual +P loads that approach the
20,000 psi standard and it is possible to get around 1,000 fps with
a cast 158 gr SWC out of the 2" mod 10 and stay within limits. That
would be my choice if I was looking for a best SD load for a 2" mod 10.
 
I think 1000 fps (I think the actual number was like 980 fps) is a magic threshold and if I could get that much out of a snub it would be great. The powder choice of either Red or Green Dot strikes me as unusual. I LIKE Red Dot, but I never thought of using it for hot loads. Realistically though, even BE and Titegroup are versatile enough to get some pretty hot loads when piled on even though it's best as a target powder.

FOR DISCUSSION PURPOSES ONLY: "Warm" loads of RED DOT have been published since the '30's- see Sharpe's book, Pacific's Manual, and of course the legendary Speer #8 among others!
Col. Cooper's oft PUBLISHED load was 5.0 gr./160 SWC.
 
Brilliant....

I'm guessin faster than a 1" and slower than a 3"

Thanks for that.:D

I was lamenting that there is so much research done in 4" barrels as the standard for service revolvers, but it seems that 99% of carry guns nowadays are snubs and three inchers are hard to find. Either way. Right now I've got a 2" 'J' frame and want to make the best out of it.

1" barrel? Just like snubs, Derringers work, but I'd like to know what I'm dealing with.
 
Back in the "good old days" Jeff Cooper advocated a 158 gr SWC at 1000fps with a charge (which I do not remember) of Red Dot or Green Dot powder

I remember trying one of Mr Cooper's recommended .38 loads with 4756. They seemed stout in a Colt Trooper. I decided not to shoot them in a .38.

In the article that presented the load, Mr Cooper asked "do you value your life or that of your firearm more?" (very approximate quotation)

-Mark
 
Thanks for that.:D

I was lamenting that there is so much research done in 4" barrels as the standard for service revolvers, but it seems that 99% of carry guns nowadays are snubs and three inchers are hard to find. Either way. Right now I've got a 2" 'J' frame and want to make the best out of it.

1" barrel? Just like snubs, Derringers work, but I'd like to know what I'm dealing with.

I couldn't resist. But honestly I'd be looking at the fastest powder on the chart that actually had some real (not estimated) published pressure data.
 
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Jeff Cooper was more of a self-proclaimed combat/ self defense theorist and enthusiast than he was a handloader. His handloading advice is probably not the best to follow.

I read his stuff for years in the '60s, finally wondering why I had bothered to do so.
 
Cooper was proud of himself that's for sure. He said he loaded 5.0 grs
of Red Dot under a Speer 160 gr half jacket bullet for his wife's mod
60 carry gun. I doubt very many were ever fired and I never saw any
chrono results. Then as now the highest velocities out of short barrels
were not achieved with very fast powders.
 
Corollary.....

I remember trying one of Mr Cooper's recommended .38 loads with 4756. They seemed stout in a Colt Trooper. I decided not to shoot them in a .38.

In the article that presented the load, Mr Cooper asked "do you value your life or that of your firearm more?" (very approximate quotation)

-Mark

My life. But I want my firearm to be in one piece when I need to use it.:D:D:D:D
 
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