Jim,
Great breakdown!
I'm not clear on the differences in a) and b) above???
Try using your albums here. It is just like using an outside host, but is far smoother than PhotoBucket.
Lee thank you,
At first I resisted breaking a & b apart thinking it just complicated an already confusing issue, but each time I tried to explain these to others I found myself falling back to breaking them out to get it across. Here's the details, see what you think:
a) Pre war/post war: (second gun on left. Reg. Police shown). Very similar to pre war I frames: leaf mainspring, short grip frame, round ½ penny front sight, smooth trigger (except Kit Guns and Targets are grooved), with improved hammer block safety (the post war telltale feature) but pre war shaped hammer (there was no change from long to short throw hammers on I frames), matte finish, single line “Made In U.S.A.” only (no Marcas Registradas or address on right side frame), A small S&W logo on the left side of the frame is pretty much standard. 2”, 3 1/4” & 4 1/4” barrels (4” on .38s and 6” targets are reported), with patent dates on barrel. Kit Gun .22/32 s with 4” barrel only. Target .22/32s with 6” barrel have been reported. All models continue in their respective pre war serial number ranges: which is the same for .22/32s and .32s but a separate range for .38 S&Ws. Two inch barrels on .32s can have a unique two line roll mark on the left side of the barrel with the SMITH & WESSON line centered with the 32 LONG CTG line centered below it. The earliest of the .22/32s and .32s still have the smaller (than 38 S&W) pre war cylinder diameter and frame window. Serial numbers in 6 places including stamped backside of the right stock; 8 places including front and rear sights on post war transitional 22/32 target models as on pre-war targets.
.32 and .38 S&W Regulation Police Models have rebated square butt stocks w/ serial number stamped on front grip strap above the strain screw, except for the uncommon .38 S&W 4” rd butt version, examples of which have ‘lettered’ as RPs. The same configured .32 guns have been observed but .32 Reg. Police Models are not stamped as such on the barrel like .38/32 S&W RP guns. Square butt 2” .38 Terriers have also been observed.
22/32 Kit Guns have grooved triggers, pre war target sights, serial number in eight places including the front and rear sight, Pre war style round firing pin with one proud retaining pin, and round or sq butt rebated stocks.
Can have from all to some of the following pre war details: pre war thumb piece – ‘double hourglass’ with relief cuts under the checkered pad (but can also have Type 1 post war ‘double hourglass’ thumb piece similar to pre war thumb piece but without relief cuts under the checkered pad, just as on the K and N frame sizes), service (round top) stocks or Magna stocks (.22/32s & .32s beginning w/# 557,871; .38s at # 62,381, both on 7/9/51), 18 lpi checkering, sharp cornered border (shown), flat chrome plated brass or nickel plated brass curved medallions, large pre war ‘barrel shaped’ extractor knob with right or left hand thread (see note below).
This group includes the 1957 issue .32 Reg. Police Target 'I' frame, a 1957 release non-Model #’d with small trigger guard and leaf mainspring (pre Improved 'I' frame), (Shown 3rd from top on right), 196 made on left over pre war 'I' frames. This model still has the smaller pre war cylinder diameter and frame window.
Frame serial# stamped on front grip strap above the strain screw matching all other #'d parts inc. stocks and sights, 8 locations in all, (in low #657XXX range). 4" barrel, pre war/early postwar rebated rear grip strap with post war type 16 lpi checkering, round cornered border on round top stocks with curved nickel plated brass medallions. You'll notice pre war sights w/special modified post war sight adjusting tool (SAT) to fit tiny sight screws, short action, pre war/early post war hammer, post war grooved trigger, and 3rd type post war (post 1966 after becoming J frames) non-sculpted thumbpiece while all other I frames of the period still had the third type flat latch. Most features totally out of character with non-target pre Model 31 guns of the 1957 period! But it has the 3rd and last style straight ejector knob (left hand thread), no patent dates on barrel and 4 line address. A very convoluted transition model for sure. Brief details of these 196 guns are on page 128, 3rd edition, Standard Catalog of S&W, Supica and Nahas, pictured pg 127.
b) Pure post war: (third gun on left. 2”, .32 Hand Ejector shown). Similar to above except, no patent dates on barrel, “Made In U.S.A.” with “Marcas Registradas” and address on right side frame (four lines). Usually have straight extractor (left hand thread) ‘mini’ Magna stocks on round butt guns with 16 lines per inch replaces the pre war 18 lpi checkering (Yes that differs from the SCSW by Nahas and Supica but the book conflicts with actual observations) and round cornered borders, post war curved nickel plated medallions, grooved trigger. Type 2 postwar single hourglass thumb piece or Type 3 non hourglass (pre flat latch) exactly like post ’66 style. Prewar/early postwar hammer. Barrels are still 2”, 3 ¼” and 4 1/4”. The plastic or steel grip medallions usually show up in these early '50s guns.
NOTES:
Many wonder what the little iron cross like marks are at the beginning and end of the cartridge roll mark on the barrel. They are common typographical ornamentations used as "feet" to begin and end the barrel rollmarking and keep it straight, from back in the day. Interestingly they show up on pre war I frames in 32 and 38 but don’t appear on 22/32s until after WW II. The little M frame .22 has them on both ends of the cartridge roll stamp. Triple locks have them atop the barrel on both ends of the address and patent dates, etc.
There has not been any pre war or post war .38 S&W Target models observed to date but 6” is reported.
A change in the early 1960’s was the hammer to spring strut junction from ball/socket to the fork/pin.
The post war I frames were changed to left hand threads on straight extractor rods soon after the commencement of production following WW II, therefore their spawn, the 1950 introduced J frame Chiefs Special, began life with left hand threads on straight extractor rods.
Just for the record however, and not affecting J frames; I must acknowledge that early post war I frames were produced with right hand threads and these are identifiable by the pre war 'barrel' style extractor rod knob,
BUT: just for the record; a very scarce few 'late', early post war I frames with the "barrel" knob have been observed with left hand threads! Again this is irrelevant to J frames.
To summarize: on the post war I and J frames; all straight extractor rods are left hand thread, but on the I frames not every "barrel" type extractor rod is right hand thread! As usual with Smiths, the I frame extractor rod changes were subject to a transition period of a couple of years.
All fixed sight I models have smooth triggers before the war which continued on the earliest post war transitional but were changed to grooved during the pre war/post war models and preceding the Improved Model.
The front trigger guard screw was eliminated when this model received the egg shaped trigger guard change, referred to as the Model of 1953 which also included the change to the J frame length grip on the I and J frame (38 Spl). Suffice it to say that there are no 5 screw Models of 1953, notwithstanding an Airweight J frame with a lock screw on the upper sideplate screw.
Before c. 1953 model, I and J frames had rounder trigger guards with the front (5th) screw and I frame length (short) grip frames and were all '5 screw models'. After c. 1953, the I and J frames were all ‘4 screw models' both had egg shaped trigger guards and J frame length grips. After Oct. 1960, 22/32 I frames and 1961 for .32 and .38 I frames, all were changed to J frames and a -1 was added to the model number.
These are only my observations and I appreciate anyone else's observations to add to the data base.
The full descriptions for the entire outline above are posted in the sticky wiregrassguy linked above.
And thank you for the suggestion on the photos. I'll pursue that.
