What's an acceptable group from a rifle?

[canoe on the yukon]

I've owned and used several 375 Holland & Holland rifles.I always got my best groups with 4350 powder.

You've made it clear that you find it uncomfortable to shoot.I've been shooting heavy caliber rifles for a long time.The 375 H&H is not considered to be particularly punishing to shoot compared to the heavies.I mention this for a reason...I've seen many at the range who try to shoot heavy caliber rifles and it's obvious they don't know how.There are certain techniques which one needs to adopt when shooting a heavy recoiling piece.

I can shoot a clover leaf group at 100 yards with a 460 weatherby if the rifle is up to it.I have seen other people shoot a rifle with less than half it's recoil act as if they were dying.No,I am not a superman.I am simply making a point.

Having said that....a two inch group at 100 yards is perfectly acceptable.

 

[nitesite]

Here is what my .270 Winchester Handi-Rifle can shoot with my handloads after a bit of load workup. It isn't impressive but it works well enough.

So you can see that my single shot rifle is not a tack driver and a .270 is not generally known for one-hole accuracy.

But when I put it into hunting service, it has always shot OK even when I didn't have a steady bench to shoot from. I have taken lots of game with rifles that would not win a long range rifle competition.

Just last month (for example) with that simple rifle, I took a 90-lb wild pig at 95-yards that was moving at a slow trot. I don't believe that it would have mattered if my rifle shot .5" groups or 2" groups from a rest. One shot was all it took.

Hunting rifles are perfectly fine if you can shoot them offhand (with a sling) into 2" at 100-yards.

 

[Paul5388]

That was a good shot on the pig Nitesite! Low and almost on the shoulder is right where it needs to be.

BTW, the .45-70 group I posted was shot with a standard 22" Handi rifle.

 

[armadillo]

Try H-4350 in your 375 H&H. It gives me 1.5" or better groups with 285 Speer Grand Slams and 300 Hornady FMJs.

 

[canoe on the yukon]

In my earlier post,I was NOT attempting to deride you for being bothered by recoil.Since you had strongly emphasized the discomfort level,I was attempting to express that you need to address handling the recoil if it's a problem for you.

I've seen slightly built women handle rifles of much greater recoil than the 375 H&H.

About group size....two inch groups are rather good,in general.I find that most rifles have a hard time getting consistant one inch groups with anything.

 

[glypnir]

Amen to the equipment pbsession rather than hunting.

Anyone train themselves to be great shooting machines regardless of the circumstances?

I once talked to someone whose grandmother was trained by Annie Oakley. She taught things like shooting while standing on one leg on a rock in the middle of a stream. Wonder what MOA Annie was capable of in those circumstances?

 

[Noah Zark]

Originally posted by glypnir:
Amen to the equipment obsession rather than hunting . . . I once talked to someone whose grandmother was trained by Annie Oakley. She taught things like shooting while standing on one leg on a rock in the middle of a stream. Wonder what MOA Annie was capable of in those circumstances?

Not sure of Annie's capabilities under those circumstances, but as long as she was capable of Minute of Wood Block, Glass Ball, and Ace of Spade, she was most likely satisfied.

Noah

 

[dennis40x]

The group size of a rifle matters not with in reason. Example the rifle groups two inches for (3) shots at one hundred yards. Ok we know the rifles potential. Stand up and shoot with in the capabilities of the rifle. Over the years I’ve observed persons shooting off a bench rest. Their groups would be phenomenal but I’ve never seen them assume a field shooting position.

One Sportsmen’s Club I belong to sponsors running deer shoots at one hundred yards. The deer target crosses a 50Yd opening. It’s rather revealing of both equipment and shooters. The results were rather dismal. I believe if most states instituted minimum standards for hunters to obtain a hunting license most shots would have to be limited to 50yds with the target the size of an elephant.

 

[MTKTM]

I think it depends somewhat on the type of rifle. Lever actions and many semi-autos (ARs being an exception) are doing well to come in under 2". Bolt guns and ARs can do 1.5" or better, some much better. I usually shoot a 5 shot group rather than 3.

 

[canoe on the yukon]

Other than sighting in and load development,I see little point in practice at the bench.To me,shooting from the bench is a matter of fine tuning the equipment but not very relevant after that.

 

[Beaver]

My rule of thumb for rifles I hunt with is to obtain a group less than 3" at 200yds. I put up a 3" black sticky circle, and I'm ready to hunt, when three shots are in that circle at 200yds. It also helps for trajectory issues. Any rifle of the non-magnum kind, (approx 2700-2900 fps) will be 2-3" high at 100 yds, 8" low at 300, and 2 feet low at 400. My longest deer shot was 4 years ago at just under 200 yards.

This rule(s) is an accumulation of Barsness/Sundra/Seyfreid (sp) articles in many Rifle mag's over the years. Seems to work.

 

[dennis40x]

Ok people tell me what you learned from shooting of the bench? Your rifle groups X @ X distance that’s all. This is of no consequence if you can’t apply it. The following large target is (10) rounds @ 200Yds standing position. The small target is a reduced 300yd target (5) rounds @ 200Yds prone position. It tells me that at a known distance I can place X number of rounds into the black on a good day. That’s all it tells me.

Get of the bench and shoot from field positions at unknown distances to learn the firearms capability and more importantly also yours.

 

[Paul5388]

Get of the bench and shoot from field positions at unknown distances

That's well and good to say, but "field positions" vary with the type of hunting you do. This is what I hunt out of.

Which can be seen as a "white" spot on the left side of this picture.

So, what kind of "field position" do you want me using, since it has a padded gun support shelf? (The target, bottom right, is 245 yards from the stand.)

 

[dennis40x]

Originally posted by Paul5388:
So, what kind of "field position" do you want me using, since it has a padded gun support shelf? (The target, bottom right, is 245 yards from the stand.)

If that is how you hunt then that’s how you hunt. There are plenty of hunters that utilize blinds and tree stands in my general area. That’s not to say their not good hunters but it doesn’t make them good marksman thou they are adequate with in reason. Last deer season my neighbor and I opened our adjoining land to hunters. Our only stipulation was they must hunt from tree stands (all shots angle down with in reason equals safety) and shots heard must equal deer harvested.

I believe that position shooters standing, kneeling, sitting, and prone tend to be better marksman if practiced regular. Even if practiced regularly some never be come competent. Too many people shoot of a bench which is fine if you’re a bench rest shooter or F class long distance shooter. Again in my opinion more people need to get of the bench and become proficient shots.

 

[thomashoward]

A lot depends on the rifle/caliber and intended use. Always strive for the sub MOA. I find that an aftermarket trigger (Jewell) has a lot to do with how well it can be shot.
For hunting first shot placement from a cold clean barrel is most important, also shoot a variety of positions and distance. Practice range estimating or get a rangefinder

 

[Paul5388]

If that is how you hunt then that’s how you hunt.

Actually, that's pretty well how you have to hunt in this part of the world. Every square inch of Texas has been owned by someone since before statehood. It was all part of the old Spanish land grants that gave title to individuals. People rarely get shot out of their stands, but the same can't be said for those walking around in the woods.

Every deer killed last year (3 one shot kills) on my neighbor's and my land was shot with the same load in 2 different guns by a teenager and a pre-teen. 18.0 gr of Blue Dot with a 100 gr Core-Loc in .243.

 

[nitesite]

Originally posted by thomashoward:
For hunting first shot placement from a cold clean barrel is most important, also shoot a variety of positions and distance. Practice range estimating or get a rangefinder

That's where the rubber meets the road. I wholeheartedly agree. I hunt with a .270 single shot and a .243 bolt rifle. I carefully futz with 5-shot groups while developing my handloads. Once that's done, it's always come down to making sure the crosshairs and POI match from a cold barrel on the first shot, and shooting from varied positions as dennis40x mentioned.

 

[nitesite]

Originally posted by Paul5388:
BTW, the .45-70 group I posted was shot with a standard 22" Handi rifle.

Well Done!

I bought my Handi-Rifle used for $50 with a Japanese 4x Tasco on it plus it also came with a fitted 12-ga barrel. I've thoroughly enjoyed hunting with the Handi-Rifle.

Single shot hunting rifles are vastly underestimated. It's the archer, not the arrow.

 

[Paul5388]

That wasn't a bargain Nitesite, that was almost illegal!

My .30-30 barrel came from Alabama (or maybe Georgia), but I did buy a few as factory units.

My .357 barrel now resides on BC wood and action, sorta like the .45 Colt BC Carbine that's sold now.