When did carrying 5 rounds in a Colt SAA become the norm?

[Buford57]

Several years ago I read an (admittedly) second hand account of how the author's relative (father, uncle, grandfather - I don't recall) while serving as a Cavalryman in the late 1800s had his issue Colt stolen while he was relieving himself in the sagebrush. What was significant was that the revolver had one defective chamber from which the empties would not eject easily. The trooper had "fixed" it by hammering a fired case tightly into the offending chamber permanently and then leaving that chamber under the hammer. The account was "as told to" the author by the trooper.

No, it wasn't a deliberate safety measure; yes, it would make sense if you have one permanently "empty" chamber to put it out of the firing sequence; yes, I have heard that many "lost" SAAs were actually traded for whiskey.

It just was interesting to me that the trooper seemed more concerned about the possibility of hanging the gun up with a partially ejected empty than of only carrying 5 rounds. Whether he knew it or not, he had just made himself a little safer...until the gun was stolen.

 

[Eddie Southgate]

Elmer Keith was not of the 1870s but was a kid and a young man while that generation were adults. He wrote that a stirrup could fall off the horn with enough force to break the safety notch. He listed more than one case of folks being shot in the leg from this. Meanwhile he said his 38-40 was loaded with 3 factory JSP and 3 cast rifle bullets on an elk hunt. I think that loading five was normal in the teens and twenties, but people still loaded 6 under certain conditions.

Elmer's holster had a strip of leather on the front with a hole in it that fitted the hammer cutout in the frame . When he holstered with the six rounds he would put the strip under the hammer with the firing pin in the hole . He claimed this would not allow the pin to reach the primer if dropped or hit and would also keep his gun in the holster if his horse bucked . You are referencing the hunt where he was almost killed by the Elk on 19 October 1919 in Montana .

Eddie

 

[Sugar River]

The Schofield cartridge specs, from memory a 230 gr @ 830 f/s, became the standard on which the Army insisted when the 1911 was adopted.

Also, as someone mentioned, it was common to use the old percussion terminology when referring to the newer cartridge guns. Thus "ball" and "cap" instead of bullet and primer.

 

[Malamute]

Only today do we 'know' that the safety notch does not guarantee safety. More evidence that the 'empty chamber under the hammer' was not standard practice for the Colt 'in the day', when even Ruger didn't think of it for their original revolvers.

Which brings us back to the O.P.'s query: can it be proven that it was standard practice during the earliest years of the Colt SAA to carry with an empty chamber under the hammer. No; in fact the evidence in this thread, is that it was standard practice to carry with all six chambers loaded, hammer lowered onto the safety notch.

.

This makes me wonder if we have been reading the same thread.

 

[Rock185]

I've certainly enjoyed this discussion, and have wondered about this question myself. I've long believed it likely that carrying 5 only became common practice in the 20th. Century. The internet was in it's infancy in the 1800s, so firearms knowledge common now due to the internet, would have not been common knowledge in the 19th. Century. I doubt firearms owners were as knowledgeable back then about the internal workings, safety features,or lack of, of firearms as we are now days. I don't like to think about it now, but I was still pretty ignorant of such things back in the '60s, that's 1960s, and carried my 3-screw Super Blackhawk fully loaded.

FWIW, the big city PD I worked for had a case, in the 1970s IIRC, wherein a man dropped his 3-screw Blackhawk. It discharged, resulting in his death. There but for the grace of God went I with my early SBH.....

 

[BE Mike]

I bought a used S&W model 14 on gunbroker. It was in good shape, except it was missing the hammer block. Some folks thought that removing the hammer block would lighten and smooth up the action. The first thing I did was order a new hammer block from Brownells and installed it upon receipt. There is always a chance that any used S&W revolver may have had the safety block removed or simply forgotten when the side plate was removed. Good idea to check those old pieces.

 

[M29since14]

I bought a used S&W model 14 on gunbroker. It was in good shape, except it was missing the hammer block. Some folks thought that removing the hammer block would lighten and smooth up the action. The first thing I did was order a new hammer block from Brownells and installed it upon receipt. There is always a chance that any used S&W revolver may have had the safety block removed or simply forgotten when the side plate was removed. Good idea to check those old pieces.

I bought an S&W 44 Magnum that was missing it’s hammer block. Never occurred to me to check for it until I removed the sideplate for cleaning.

Very interesting thread. I tend toward the side of this discussion that it was probably very common for SAAs to be carried fully loaded until well into the 20th century, but of course have no evidence to support my presumption. Human nature being what it is, I’d guess odds favored that - particularly for casual users.

I’m familiar with a couple of ADs in my area with the old-model Rugers. Neither of the gentlemen could be called expert gunmen, but both went through Uncle Sam’s small-arms training in the USMC, and both were quite surprised when their Rugers went bang. Neither individual was injured, fortunately.

 

[rednichols]

The Schofield cartridge specs, from memory a 230 gr @ 830 f/s, became the standard on which the Army insisted when the 1911 was adopted.

Also, as someone mentioned, it was common to use the old percussion terminology when referring to the newer cartridge guns. Thus "ball" and "cap" instead of bullet and primer.

Well, I would want to see proof that we 'know' that back in the day, the old percussion terminology was interchanged. It's been mentioned, as you say, twice in this thread.

This article is about Lorene Threepersons' father, who was killed later in a beating. But not from the 'ball' they picked out of his neck. So I have had to reason that it was a low-powered, small calibre cap-and-ball pistol used in the shooting. No, I don't 'know' this, but that's my reasoning.

View attachment tritthart_shooting.pdf

Henry Tritthart was a well-regarded German-born (he says Dutchman in the article) rancher who was married to the local Indian who was Lorene Tritthart's mother. Lorene, as a Cherokee on the Dawes Rolls whilst in Indian Territory (it was not yet called Oklahoma, nor was it a State), had a land entitlement there. She later married a man named Nichols (my surname, no relation), divorced him, and in the year of Susie Threepersons' death in Mexico (1923) was married to Tom and until her death in 1968. At which time he remarried again! And lived a year.

 

[sigp220.45]

Well, I would want to see proof that we 'know' that back in the day, the old percussion terminology was interchanged. It's been mentioned, as you say, twice in this thread.

It is still interchanged today. You “pop a cap” and shoot .45 and 9mm “ball” ammo.

I think it is not a stretch to believe people didn’t immediately switch from cap to primer and from ball to bullet.

 

[ddixie884]

The .45 caliber rnd issued by the army was called the .45govt, the case had a .45Colt rim and was 1.10 inch in length..............

Remington commercially loaded this case with smokeless powder and head stamped it .45 Colt.

Keith had a dim view of this cartridge and recommended the black powder version with 40gr under a 250gr lrn bullet with the small flat point.