When Kroil Does Not Work?

[btvarner]

Have a S&W New Departure Safety Hammerless 4th Model. Gun has seen use but is extremely clean inside & out. Very little rust. Most pristine bore I have ever seen on a black powder era pistol. Everything disassembled fine. Except for the cross pin that holds the firing pin & housing in place. Pin does not budge. Dabbed on Kroil several time to both sides of the pin in the frame. Now have it soaking with Kroil in a sandwich bag. So far does not seem to be loosening the pin. Does not budge in either direction.

Very familiar with repairing firearms however this is my first New Departure.

Am I missing anything? Do you have to keep the firing pin in a specific position to remove the cross pin? Gun Digest Revolver Disassembly II does not suggest that.

I will give it more time, but what is a good next step if that does not work?

 

[Autonomous]

Just a guess but consider heat and cool cycles.
Put the gun in the freezer for a few hours then out in the sun a few times.

 

[mmaher94087]

A heat gun will help. NO torches / open flame. Heat the breach block and apply Kroil while hot. Wash, rinse, repeat; it may take a few heat cycles to break the bond on the pin. I trust that you are using a cupped starter punch to affect the first movement of the pin.

 

[505Gibbs]

If you have a soldering iron that you can put a clean tip on it - it could help.

 

[gmborkovic]

Pls. use a cupped punch! And soak and heat. Nothing worse than a flat pin that should be domed. If you flatten, you will be doomed.

 

[oddshooter]

Kroll is great, but when it doesn't work:

I'm a vibration fan for breaking apart stuck parts.
tap, tap, tap and then tap a hundred times more.

Even lug nuts will eventually break free.

Prescut

 

[gmborkovic]

Were these pins straight or tapered? Forgot.

 

[H Richard]

As far as I recall all S&W pins have been straight.

 

[Rlg#17]

Looking at the pistol from the rear, like you were looking down the sights go left to right to remove. Right to left to re-install. Cup tipped punch only, use the correct size.

Regards from the Bluegrass,
Rick Gibbs

 

[deadin]

Is the firing pin broken? If not, why does it need to come out?

 

[jimmyj]

possile the firing pin needs to be a special position.
try pushing the firing pin backwards and tapping cross pin

 

[mmaher94087]

All S&W pins are straight. The drive side doesn't matter. The firing pin position does not matter as the pin only holds the bushing in the frame. deadin, good question.

 

[btvarner]

Mmaher94087’s validation that firing pin does not need to be in a certain position answered the main question I was concerned about before proceeding too much further.

Throughout the day I have switched between soaking in Kroil and trying to punch out the pin. I have intentionally not used much power because I was NOT using a cupped punch. I have cupped punches, but none in that large a diameter (.096” pin).

Last thing I did was use the lathe to turn a cup onto one of my punches that was close in size. Tried that with more weight behind it. Still does not budge.

By-the-way I have looked everywhere (Brownell’s, Midway, etc.) and cannot find a cupped punch near the correct size. Closest is .070” on the small size and .110” on the oversize.

Tomorrow I will try the heating tricks and see if that helps over time.

PS: when I obtain a very old gun, I ALWAYS thoroughly conserve it. That involves total strip down, even if it is not broken.

 

[deadin]

I would think a gentle sonic cleaner would clear out any crud that may be around the firing pin.


I used to do the same thing, just to show that I could take it apart but with age comes wisdom..... "don't go any further (farther?) then is absolutely necessary."

 

[mmaher94087]

Kroil, heat and patience are your friends. A short, 3/8" long, cupped starter punch and a heavy, hit-the-punch-once, hammer will help. Once you remove the pin, pull the trigger a few times and the bushing will move out of the frame. I don't recommend dry firing, but this is easier than placing a drift on the firing pin and hitting the drift with a hammer. This is a Safety Hammerless and it's difficult, if not impossible, to get a good angle on the firing pin.

 

[rct269]

For openers, I don't know beans from apple butter about anything but pre-war target guns and pre-war target sights. One other thing I do know is the Kroil, or whatever, has to get where the action is. With pre-war target hand ejectors there is one tiny screw attaching the sight to the frame----and it seems determined to stay right where it is. My remedy has been my gunsmith, who loosens these screws in a matter of minutes; and has never boogered a screw or the gun---$20 a pop. His secret: "It's amazing what a little heat will do." Another secret is how much heat (?)---and where (?). That secret remains a secret---and $20 a pop activates its application. I have no problem whatsoever paying for his time and his knowledge----it's the way of the world.

Now, having tried Kroil, and pretty much anything else to loosen these screws, it finally dawned on me the magic juice has to get where the action is-----and it clearly wasn't getting past the junction of the screw head and the frame. What to do? In the case of a pre-war target, what to do is raise the sight, and pour the juice into the channel in the frame underneath the sight----where it runs right down to the threads of that little screw----and does its job pretty damn quick. (!!)

Now I don't know where you're pouring the Kroil that doesn't work on this pin, and I also don't know if where I'd pour it would let it work; but I figure it's worth a try. It figures your firing pin is spring loaded. It figures it comes out and goes back when you pull the trigger. So how about pushing it back as far as it'll go with a needle/common pin/whatever----and pouring the juice into the resulting opening---assuming there'll be a resulting opening. Then it can work from the inside out, rather than from the outside in.

Will it work with this firing pin assembly? That's another thing I don't know---it works with my little screws.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[btvarner]

Solved!! I have successfully removed the pin in question. No damage to the pin or frame.

After letting it soak in Kroil another night, I wiped clean and applied on some Gun Scrubber (Did not know what the Kroil would do with heat applied). Used my heat gun to apply the heat. Let cool some and got the pin out. Still very difficult to get the first movement, but after that the cross-pin came right out. The firing pin system then easily came free using the revolver's hammer repeatedly striking the firing pin method. I found NO rust or grit on the firing pin, the firing pin spring, the firing pin bushing, or the cross-pin.

I do have a suspicion. I had been using my normal plastic bench block to set the revolver frame on during my unsuccessful attempted extractions. This is how I almost always do such work.

This morning I changed over to a more rigid setup. Placed the frame between my lead vise jaw covers, as close to the cross-pin as possible, and clamped securely in the vise. I think that just this slightly more rigid set helped to force the pin free.

Thanks to all who provided help!
Bruce

 

[gmborkovic]

I understand the fixation of a complete dis-assemble, if you were going to carry the gun to protect yourself and property. May the voice of logic be heard. The pin still looks nice and original. Just put it back together, lube,
and shoot it at the range. If you like the safety hammerless look, go buy a 38spl. Centennial. Problem solved. Just admit that the pin wants to stay.

 

[rct269]

I too am a member of the complete disassembly lunatic fringe---and fanatically cleaning of every single piece, nook, cranny, and screw hole----and then slathering all of it with CorrosionX----and letting it sit for a spell. I remove all of the CorrosionX (that can be removed) with high pressure compressed air---DRY high pressure compressed air. Then everything goes back together, and the CorrosionX remaining on the exterior gets removed with Hoppes, dried and polished with a cotton cloth. Guns so treated have sat on the shelves of the display case for upwards of 30 years---subjected only to a semi-annual vacuuming to remove the inevitable dust----with nary a problem of any sort. Like I said, the lunatic fringe.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[gmborkovic]

Ralph, I understand your fringe thoughts, but no sense fouling up a nice gun for one pin. Its the first thing you see when you remove from the safe.
You aint carrying a 100+ old gun for self defense. Just admit defeat, the pin won and you still have a nice looking gun.

 

[mmaher94087]

btvarner, when reinstalling, use a small punch, or stiff wire, to realign the bushing before driving in the pin. It helps.

 

[Racer X]

in many cases a Dexron III/acetone 50/50 mix will wick in where Kroil won't. The most basic formula for Ed's Red.