When Was Peak 3rd Gen

[Doug M.]

There are actually some pretty big differences between the 2nd and 3rd generation pistols, although they may seem subtle. Much of the work into improving the line came from the very hard work/testing of the Illinois State Police range staff, communicated back to S&W. At the time, ISP was pretty dedicated to the S&Ws and shot the heck out of them using service ammo specifically made for them. I bought some of that 115 +P+ ammo off the state contract in the early 90s; it was about $12/case more than hardball. My Glocks ate it right up. My understanding was that only ISP got warrantee coverage for that ammo, which reflected the symbiotic relationship of the time.

 

[Brian Parrish]

Best Quote

Whenever an objection to an anachronistic feature on an older product is raised, (like "billboards", rails, or even hooked trigger guards) I am immediately reminded of a quote by Thomas Jefferson in a June 12, 1883 letter to William Johnson:

"[O]n every question of construction, [let us] carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed."

While Mr. Jefferson was examining the question of Federal Court supremacy over the states, I am cautious of employing current "standards" when criticizing past conventions.

That is to say, the fashions of the time were new, innovative, coveted, and seemed to make sense at that time.

I am certainly not above the subjective distaste for some stylistic embellishments (Schuetzen Rifles offend my delicate esthetic sensibilities), however, I feel inclined to divorce myself and view objectively that which "neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg".

John

The best thing written on the internet since Algore invented it! Sensible sentiment and an appropriate proper quotation.

Thanks JohnHL.

Kind Regards,
BrianD

 

[pasound]

GaryS - Hogue does make a two-piece wrap-around grip for the 3913, or at least they did. I found one for mine on eBay, and it was NIB when I bought it about a year ago.

 

[GaryS]

I'll have to start looking. I've seen plenty for the 69xx, but never for a 39xx.

GaryS - Hogue does make a two-piece wrap-around grip for the 3914, or at least they did. I found one for mine on eBay, and it was NIB when I bought it about a year ago.

 

[Charlie Foxtrott]

currently sporting two 1006s, a 1066.

Two 4566s, a 4506, a645, and a 915. Put me in the happy group.

 

[JohnHL]

The best thing written on the internet since Algore invented it! Sensible sentiment and an appropriate proper quotation.

Thanks JohnHL.

Kind Regards,
BrianD

You're most welcome, Brian.

A rare moment of lucidity, then the effects of the surgery wear off and I return to being Algernon...

John

 

[BAM-BAM]

GaryS - Hogue does make a two-piece wrap-around grip for the 3914, or at least they did. I found one for mine on eBay, and it was NIB when I bought it about a year ago.

Hogue are in rubber and wood [smooth or checkered] slightly arched backstrap..... been using them for 30 years.

Still on their website $80-105

 

[Green Frog]

I hate to flog a deceased equine, but in my humble opinion, the best of the 3rd Gen S&Ws was ... the 2nd Generation!. Others may argue, but to me the absolute zenith of S&W autopistols intended for service and carry occurred with the 639 and others of its generation. My 639 that became the basis of my FrankenSmith is everything I could ask for and some I didn't even know I "needed".
We now return you to your previously scheduled thread?
Froggie

 

[Sevens]

That would be so much a minority opinion that, by the numbers, they might call it a statistical anomaly.

I have six of the 2nd Gen series and I have no doubt that the 2nd Gen is well below the 1st Gens and miles below the 3rd Gens.

 

[kmk008]

Some good commentary on the 2nd gen's here too. Which brings me back to my 639 and 5904. There certainly are a lot more differences than just the grips and some of those changes have been called out in this thread. But my feelings remain - I love the 2nd Gen and I love the 3rd Gen, but id prefer a 2G over a very early 3G. Maybe not on this thread or forum, but any of us that even carry a 3rd gen or use it for home defense are in the minority these days.

Back in the day the 3Gs brought forward some very useful changes at the time that had a lot more importance in their prime. These days most people would write them all off as "dinosaurs" regardless of generation. As part of my collection these days, the 5904 isn't really any more practical or useful than a 2G and I think the styling of the 2G was a little sharper.

 

[pasound]

Corrected my 2/25 post to 3913.
I have a 6906 with two different Hogues available, rubber and wood. Neither fit my hand, so it carries an as-new set of factory plastics that I found on Fleabay.
My favorite of the two is the 3913, with Hogue rubber.

 

[Sevens]

My "fast" opinion of the generations, generally speaking. Just my quick catch-all that does not do any of them full justice, but is a speedy over view:

1st Gen
The formation of the design. Most of the parts were hand fitted and craftsmen assembled them and proofed them before they were approved to be sent to distributors to get to the customers. Finish was nice and guns looked great, although the anodized frames show wear quickly and some of the late-70's guns show many examples of plum-bluing. Early reputation for only feeding FMJ, absolutely opposite from the ultimate reputation of guns that feed anything including empty brass.

2nd Gen
Firing pin lock made the guns safer and more fit for duty carry. Protected rear sight was not attractive but could survive the apocalypse. Stainless finish arrives which was a huge upgrade and you could finally get an all-steel gun that wasn't specifically a collectible. Finishes, details and parts fitment were not priorities on these guns and the trigger pulls are the worst in the history of all generations. The DA pull was comically heavy. The single action pull was certainly usable, but obviously worse than the silky 1st Gen pistols.

3rd Gen
The pinnacle of the design, although the one-piece grip recall was an early black eye, more upgrades over the 2nd Gen than most folks realize. As the 3rd Gens evolved and the MIM parts arrived, DA trigger pulls were at their very best. Novak sights set the early standard for what duty/carry sights should be. New options for actions including DAO and frame-mount decockers available. The buying public and many dealers easily confused by the guzillion different model numbers, an idea that might have gotten out of hand.

 

[Frank Black]

Okay, I admit, that was a rant. But it was on-topic!
* * *
Next bit of love: S&W's first attempt at a "Value Line" pistol could be argued as a failure to truly save money, make more profit and take back some market share. I say this because S&W did it for less than two years with the 915 and 411 before they went back to the table and REALLY started cheapening things down with the 908, 909, 910 and 410 guns.

But this is where the win is and where my love is -- the 915 and 411 are FANTASTIC guns that look good and work great. The 411 is scarce but the 915 was produced by the truckload in that short window they actually made them. If you find either of these for reasonable money, please take my advice and BUY BUY BUY. These are great guns.

I'd definitely have to agree on the 411. Mine's been fantastic and is a surprisingly accurate shooter, and I'm a hard-core 10mm guy.

 

[GaryS]

To my mind, the 457 is the greatest of all Value Line pistols, followed closely by the CS guns.

The 457 is really just a budge 4513TSW without the rail. Until not too long ago they were a cheap .45ACP that was reliable and accurate. They are still reliable and accurate, but not cheap.

The CS guns are unique as there is no 3rd Gen equivalent. They are better sub compact carry pistols than just about anything made today.

Okay, I admit, that was a rant. But it was on-topic!

I'm not sure I can really pin down the apogee of the 3rd Gens, but I can say a few positive things. First is that if you are a 1-2-3rd Gen guy, then you cannot subscribe to any axiom where you categorically write off MIM. The S&W MIM used in 3rd Gens is just the most easily obvious night & day argument for MIM done right that absolutely delivers.

There is almost zero report of MIM-related failures in S&W 3rd Gen pistols... and I think we here that are hardcore and knee-deep in to these guns here in this forum would absolutely hear even scattered odd MIM failure stories if they existed. To be clear, the internet is blasted with MIM hate and MIM failure stories in guns... but not MIM failure in S&W 3rd Gens. My position is that the best MIM in firearms that's ever appeared in large scale is the MIM in S&W 3rd Gens. Fight me!

Next bit of love: S&W's first attempt at a "Value Line" pistol could be argued as a failure to truly save money, make more profit and take back some market share. I say this because S&W did it for less than two years with the 915 and 411 before they went back to the table and REALLY started cheapening things down with the 908, 909, 910 and 410 guns.

But this is where the win is and where my love is -- the 915 and 411 are FANTASTIC guns that look good and work great. The 411 is scarce but the 915 was produced by the truckload in that short window they actually made them. If you find either of these for reasonable money, please take my advice and BUY BUY BUY. These are great guns.

 

[Yendor357]

Steven's, a million years ago, in the late 80s, Novak's would do the trigger guard under cut, as well as mill off the front sight and do a dovetail front sight. They'd do a 745 rear on a 645 if you wanted. And they'd do a trigger job. That's one of the many missed opportunities in my sorted life.

I have a nice old fixed sight 645. It shoots a hot 185 really well.

I have a VJE 4506 that shoots like a target pistol. One fine day, I hit my 3 inch round plate 11 times in a row, standing off hand. That'll never happen again.

My most recent is a VJE TSW4566. No rail, the 2 holes in the dust cover with the 2 little black buttons.I shoot that gun almost as well as the 4506.

Even tho it's a good shooter, I bought the 645 mostly because it was cheap, and it's nostalgia. I was a big Miami Vice fan.

To me, the flagship of the S&W duty autos will always be the last of the 4506s; the ones with the round trigger guard, and laser markings.

The 4566 TSW and the 4506 slides have been sent to Trijucon for relamping. The 4566 shoots 5 inches low at 20 yards, and Trijicon has a replacement rear that will rectify that. I can't wait to get them back.

 

[CH4]

Up until they went to the black mim hammers/triggers and rails.

 

[Yendor357]

What's wrong with the black MIM hammers?

 

[Aukula1062]

What's wrong with the black MIM hammers?

Nothing is wrong with MIM. As a matter of fact, it is considered an upgrade for the older gen 3 guns. I believe that most folks equate Metal Injected Molding to casting. Those are two very different technologies.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

It's a valid complaint. I always liked the look of the one-piece grip, but between the complete debacle of the recall grips and the fact that they are all slick 'n slippery, it is definitely the worst feature that was a true upgrade with the debut of the 3rd Gens.

For me the weak point of the one-piece grips was that the mainspring's perch was on the grip, not the frame like the aftermarket Hogue's used with there adapter.

Kind of surprising S&W never replicated that but I suspect they were close with Hogue & didn't want to pay patent right fees or
to steal their niche market.

.

 

[N4KVE]

Nothing is wrong with MIM. As a matter of fact, it is considered an upgrade for the older gen 3 guns. I believe that most folks equate Metal Injected Molding to casting. Those are two very different technologies.

Does anyone really think they went to MIM because it was an upgrade? They went to MIM because it was cheaper to make. Lower cost to make means bigger profit to the mfr. GARY

 

[GaryS]

If lower cost was the issue, they would have just kept making 2nd Gen guns.

Does anyone really think they went to MIM because it was an upgrade? They went to MIM because it was cheaper to make. Lower cost to make means bigger profit to the mfr. GARY