Where can I find reliable numbers for DGUs?

[P&R Fan]

I like to go on Facebook and comment on anti-gun sites, of which there are many. Several will ban you, no matter how polite you are, but some are mature enough to have discussions. Many of them excoriate Gary Kleck and his claims of 2.5 Million DGUs per year. Truthfully, I wonder if there are that many, but I know there are a lot. One site mentioned Dr. David Hemenway. He is a VERY anti-gun researcher, but he grudgingly admits there are at least 100,000 DGUs per year in this country by private citizens. The numbers I have read on these sites say there are about 33,000 murders and suicides per year involving guns. I pointed out on one site the former number is over 3 times the latter. They responded they do not believe Hemenways numbers, even though they quote him, and the figure is 1,600 DGUs per year. Don't know where they get that figure but I'm sure it is WAY low.
What source is a trusted one to get the real number of DGUs per year. I know it is a significant number.
Jim

 

[Doug M.]

I doubt that there is good data. As far as I know, there is no distinct category for justifiable homicides in most data collection (UCR etc) and that would not include the number of times there is a display resulting in a change of behavior with no shots fired, nor is there for non-fatal wounds. I have seen the assertion that the ratio of display/pointing to shots fired is about 14:1, but I do not recall the source or the specific criteria.

The other problem is that we are then confusing practical utility with a right, which is a potentially dangerous path. Driving a car may have a lot of social utility, but it is in no way a right. It is unlikely you will change their minds, so you are in essence wrestling with pigs, the usual result of which is being covered with mud and feces.

 

[ContinentalOp]

Not sure if it'll help, but look up Dr. Marvin Wolfgang. He was considered one of the most influential criminologists of the 20th century. If I remember correctly he was one of the first to take a quantitative approach to criminology. He was also vehemently anti-gun and didn't believe there should be any private ownership of firearms. However, he reviewed Gary Kleck's research and could find no faults with either the methodology or the results. I can't remember the exact quote, but Wolfgang said that he hated Kleck's study because it disproved his own beliefs that guns had no benefits in society.

 

[Old cop]

Someone pls. explain what a DGU is.

 

[FPrice]

Someone pls. explain what a DGU is.

Defensive Gun Use. Good guy (or at least a victim) is about to be victimized and uses a firearm to defend themselves.

One of the tactics used by anti-gunners is to state that there are very few DGUs where the assailant dies and so this proves that the use of a gun to defend yourself is not that common. However they ignore the fact that if you just show a gun and the bad guy runs away, that is also a DGU. Or if you just wound a bad guy and escape.

However back to the issue of numbers. The best reason why we don't have good data on DGUs came from a Sheriff somewhere in the South in a state which had just legalized concealed carry. Someone asked him why there were not more reported uses of a gun by an honest citizen for defense and he stated that it was because this was not a statistic which is captured and reported by law enforcement. Police record the number of crimes, not the number of lawful acts.

This was back in the old Compuserve days where I learned how to debate anti-gunners on the firearms forum. Didn't work back the either. Haters just gotta hate. But it sure was fun to see them go silent when you rebut their lies with facts.

 

[P&R Fan]

Defensive Gun Use. Good guy (or at least a victim) is about to be victimized and uses a firearm to defend themselves.

One of the tactics used by anti-gunners is to state that there are very few DGUs where the assailant dies and so this proves that the use of a gun to defend yourself is not that common. However they ignore the fact that if you just show a gun and the bad guy runs away, that is also a DGU. Or if you just wound a bad guy and escape.

However back to the issue of numbers. The best reason why we don't have good data on DGUs came from a Sheriff somewhere in the South in a state which had just legalized concealed carry. Someone asked him why there were not more reported uses of a gun by an honest citizen for defense and he stated that it was because this was not a statistic which is captured and reported by law enforcement. Police record the number of crimes, not the number of lawful acts.

This was back in the old Compuserve days where I learned how to debate anti-gunners on the firearms forum. Didn't work back the either. Haters just gotta hate. But it sure was fun to see them go silent when you rebut their lies with facts.

Back several years ago I was listening to a nationally syndicated radio program. The guest was Josh Sugarman of an anti-gun group. He stated that the most recent FBI figures showed there were only 126 cases of a private citizen killing a criminal in self defense. This, to his mind, proves guns are rarely used legally in self defense. I called the show and got on. By that time Mr. Sugarman was gone. I told the host I agreed that was probably an accurate number. But it was illustrative what he DIDN'T mention. How many times did the criminal surrender with no shot fired? Or the shot missed? Or he fled? Or was wounded but didn't die? Apparently to the anti-gunners the only legitimate DGU is when you kill the criminal. The host did not have an answer for me.
I think the biggest reason numbers are unknown is people often don't report the incident to the police. I mentioned the fact this Facebook post this is important to me as I am one of those statistics. About 15 years ago I caught a guy trying to break into my house. I was carrying my S&W M696 into the house. He advanced on me aggressively until he saw the muzzle, not pointing at him. Suddenly he wanted to be elsewhere. A move I seconded. I of course reported it to the police. I stated they had their views which were backed up by statistics, which, as the Gentleman I am, I respect. I have something a bit more convincing.....experience.
Jim

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

The broadcast news is in no way an accurate count but 2 or 3 years ago there were a number of reported home Invasions (3) in a week and a half. These all ended with the "Victim" using a firearm in their protection, in the reporting two of the intruders retreated without a shot being fired. In the third, a 95 year old woman from Texas pulled a revolver and shot the intruder from across the hotel room. Reported home invasions fell for several weeks after that!

I wonder if you could get a program to scan the website new for the info you need?

Ivan

 

[okiegtrider]

Someone pls. explain what a DGU is.

I was going to have to ask if someone else didn't. Thanks.

 

[Aticus]

I Driving a car may have a lot of social utility, but it is in no way a right.

Doug, to my mind the fact that driving a car is not a RIGHT is because doing so is not mentioned in the Constitution. Walking is not mentioned but try to tell someone that is not a right. Riding a horse or driving a wagon are not a right by the Constitution. Being forced to get a license to drive a motor vehicle is something that was done generations ago and was accepted. To my mind it is not a privilege it is a right.

There are many who disagree with me on this but that has happened before and I'm good with that.

 

[texmex]

Another thing to remember is the media and politicians will quote statistics such as 5 killed in defensive use of a firearm (ruled justifiable), 200 murdered with firearms. This makes it look like criminal use of firearms is much more common than defensive use. What they leave out are the times a weapon was displayed but no shots were fired or shots were fired but not fatally. The stats for DGU when no shots were fired are never going complete since many incidents are unreported. How many bad guys have just run away when they realized the potential victim was armed? We will never know. Sometimes a gun doesn't even have to clear leather to end a fight before it starts. How many armed crooks gave up because of the tactics and procedures an officer used that told the crook that this officer knows what he is doing and will kill him if he tries anything. Those stats dom't get counted.

 

[Rastoff]

I think the biggest reason numbers are unknown is people often don't report the incident to the police.

It's not just that they aren't reported. Even if they are reported, no one collects the data. Like the sheriff mentioned by FPrice said, no data is collected on lawful events.

I work on an Air Force base. The leadership wants motorcyclists to wear bright orange vests. As justification, they are quick to cite motorcycle fatalities where someone wasn't wearing an orange vest. However, they fail to include the millions of motorcyclists who arrive at work safe and sound each day even though the don't wear an orange vest. Also, they can't point to a single incident where an orange vest saved a life. Why? Because no one EVER reports an accident that DIDN'T happen.

In my CCW class I tell my students to call the police if they ever have to present their gun. There are two salient reasons for this. First, it supports your case that you were the defender. Second, if you pull your gun, don't fire a shot and the assailant runs off, you prevent the bad guy from calling 911 and reporting you as the assailant.