Where to buy ammo and brand for mp 15

[ChattanoogaPhil]

I've been using Wolf for a long time. Here's a photo of lacquer coated Wolf ammo. The application could not be less uniform if they tried. The drip edges can be felt with a fingernail. I'm guessing this is what Foxtrot and Christcorp are debating as to flaking off "brownish looking".

I've put thousands through my Bushmaster with zero hiccups... cleaning after each shooting session.

I have read others caution that after firing a good amount of steel case to not shoot brass until cleaning the chamber to avoid getting a stuck case. The reason being that steel case does not seal well which can create buildup in the chamber... brass expands more than steel and if the chamber is overly dirty from shooting steel then the brass case can get stuck.

 

[Foxtrot]

I've been using Wolf for a long time. Here's a photo of lacquer coated Wolf ammo. The application could not be less uniform if they tried. The drip edges can be felt with a fingernail. I'm guessing this is what Foxtrot and Christcorp are debating as to flaking off "brownish looking".

I've put thousands through my Bushmaster with zero hiccups... cleaning after each shooting session.

I have read others caution that after firing a good amount of steel case to not shoot brass until cleaning the chamber to avoid getting a stuck case. The reason being that steel case does not seal well which can create buildup in the chamber... brass expands more than steel and if the chamber is overly dirty from shooting steel then the brass case can get stuck.

That build up, thats exactly how the ones we tested looked.

Yeah, if you shoot brass after shooting a bunch of the steel cases the brass can become stuck.

Some manufacturers use a "modified" chamber intending to target the "steel case" users also, yet advertise mil-spec 5.56. Thats not always true and the general public does not know and think they are getting a true mil-spec 5.56 chamber when in reality the chambering is a "modified" chamber type that is not really mil-spec, but for advertising purposes under advertising laws it is. At least one of the manufacturers Christcorp mentioned does this. If you tear them completly down and start measuring you find they are close but most likely just over the outer limits of the mil-spec in areas. But they have to do that in order to "recommend" a specific ammo like some of them do. If they recommended the steel cased ammo for a true 5.56 spec chamber, if something were to happen, doesn't matter what it is, the first thing thats going to come up in court is the company created a hazardous weapon by endorsing the use of ammo that did not operate within the specifications and it doesn't matter that thousands use the ammo or not, either a weapon is operated in specs or its not and there is no grey area.

 

[christcorp]

But they have to do that in order to "recommend" a specific ammo like some of them do.

I've never seen any manufacturer RECOMMEND a particular ammo. I've seen some say NOT to use certain ammo; but never endorsing a particular ammo.

As for if a weapon is mil-spec or not, I think is a totally different subject. This is a "s&W" specific forum. As such, that is what is generally implied. But I consider Mil-spec, when it comes to civilian rifles like the AR, to be quite a bit overrated. And that's even after spending 21 years in the military dealing with Mil-Spec. Not one of my hunting rifles are "Mil-Spec" compared to a 1903 springfield or similar. Yet; my hunting rifles are a lot more accurate than any AR. Do I care if my barrel is 1:7 twist and 4150 steel instead of 1:9 and 4140? No. I don't shoot 70+ grain bullets and my 1:9 is chromed; so it isn't important to me. Same with the BCG. Do i really care if it's an M16 FA bcg instead of an AR15? No. I don't shoot full auto and the AR15 bcg has proven to be quite reliable. If by chance the chamber was modified to accurately fit steel case ammo; would that bother me (Because it's not mil-spec)? Not at all, as long as the rifle was still reliable, dependable, and accurate.

The point is; I bought an M&P15OR for a number of reasons. Quality manufacturer; quality parts; reliable; not plastic; eats any ammo you feed it; iron/red-dot open sights get me an acceptable group; nice trigger pull; etc... Do i care if it's 100% mil-spec. nope; not in the least. Except for 2 other true military rifles, the rest of my weapons are not mil-spec and they function perfectly.

No people are free to not shoot steel case ammo if they want. They are free to shoot it. I shoot around 400 rounds of .223 a month. I'd rather spend $80 doing that at $4 a box than $200 for $10 a box. Every rifle is unique. If a person tries steel case and it works good in their rifle, then they have a very good financial option here to shoot steel case. It will save them a lot of money and it will work fine.

FWIW: I have a 20 year old frankenstein AR that was built before steel case ammo became popular. I know for a fact that the various manufacturers who built the individual components had no idea of building their parts with steel case ammo in mind. And that frankenstein will eat steel case ammo perfectly every time. And when I'm done shooting my 300-400 rounds in an afternoon, I clean the gun (10 minutes of time), and it ready for next time. And there is no premature wearing or defects in the weapon because of steel case ammo.

 

[Foxtrot]

I've never seen any manufacturer RECOMMEND a particular ammo. I've seen some say NOT to use certain ammo; but never endorsing a particular ammo.

As for if a weapon is mil-spec or not, I think is a totally different subject. This is a "s&W" specific forum. As such, that is what is generally implied. But I consider Mil-spec, when it comes to civilian rifles like the AR, to be quite a bit overrated. And that's even after spending 21 years in the military dealing with Mil-Spec. Not one of my hunting rifles are "Mil-Spec" compared to a 1903 springfield or similar. Yet; my hunting rifles are a lot more accurate than any AR. Do I care if my barrel is 1:7 twist and 4150 steel instead of 1:9 and 4140? No. I don't shoot 70+ grain bullets and my 1:9 is chromed; so it isn't important to me. Same with the BCG. Do i really care if it's an M16 FA bcg instead of an AR15? No. I don't shoot full auto and the AR15 bcg has proven to be quite reliable. If by chance the chamber was modified to accurately fit steel case ammo; would that bother me (Because it's not mil-spec)? Not at all, as long as the rifle was still reliable, dependable, and accurate.

The point is; I bought an M&P15OR for a number of reasons. Quality manufacturer; quality parts; reliable; not plastic; eats any ammo you feed it; iron/red-dot open sights get me an acceptable group; nice trigger pull; etc... Do i care if it's 100% mil-spec. nope; not in the least. Except for 2 other true military rifles, the rest of my weapons are not mil-spec and they function perfectly.

No people are free to not shoot steel case ammo if they want. They are free to shoot it. I shoot around 400 rounds of .223 a month. I'd rather spend $80 doing that at $4 a box than $200 for $10 a box. Every rifle is unique. If a person tries steel case and it works good in their rifle, then they have a very good financial option here to shoot steel case. It will save them a lot of money and it will work fine.

FWIW: I have a 20 year old frankenstein AR that was built before steel case ammo became popular. I know for a fact that the various manufacturers who built the individual components had no idea of building their parts with steel case ammo in mind. And that frankenstein will eat steel case ammo perfectly every time. And when I'm done shooting my 300-400 rounds in an afternoon, I clean the gun (10 minutes of time), and it ready for next time. And there is no premature wearing or defects in the weapon because of steel case ammo.

Notice that I put "recommend" in quotes. Their endorsement and encouragement of the use of the steel case is the same as recommendation. For example, I know for a fact that calling one of them and asking about using <name of ammo with held here> steel cased ammo will yield "Sure you can, it works fine.", thats an endorsement, and at the same time they will tell you the chamber is 5.56 mil-spec. That is a gross contridiction, and a manufacturer de-facto recommendation of a specific ammo.

The point is not if someone cares about mil-spec or not. The point is that if it is mil-spec 5.56 chambered then steel cased ammo, of the types wev'e been speaking, is not in spec for for a 5.56 mil-spec chamber. So although it might not matter to you personally, the fact remains that the steel cased ammo of which we have been speaking is not a spec round for the mil-spec 5.56 chamber and nothing is going to change that no matter how many people use the steel cased ammo or even how much you say you have used.

Mil-Spec being a different subject or not is a matter of point of view, however, even though its a point of view thing the basic fact still remains even then that the steel cased ammo of which we have been speaking is still not a spec round for the mil-spec 5.56 chamber. So it does not matter what the point of view is on the steel cased, its still not going to be spec'd for the mil-spec 5.56 chamber and no matter how many rounds of the steel cased you put down range it will still be firing out of spec for a mil-spec 5.56 chamber.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Some manufacturers use a "modified" chamber intending to target the "steel case" users also, yet advertise mil-spec 5.56. Thats not always true and the general public does not know and think they are getting a true mil-spec 5.56 chamber when in reality the chambering is a "modified" chamber type that is not really mil-spec, but for advertising purposes under advertising laws it is.

My Bushmaster is marked "CAL .223-5.56MM"

I have seen the M&P15 marked "CAL 5.56 MM"

 

[christcorp]

Well; most manufacturers recommend AGAINST using "Reloaded" ammunition. Many even say it voids their warranty. Now; we know they only say this to cover their [Edited phil], but they say it none the less.

And while we're at it, .223 ammo is NOT MIL-SPEC 5.56. .223 is lower pressure and thinner walled. The chamber of a .223 is also a shorter leade and shorter headspace. The dimensions of the steel case .223 is the same as the brass counterpart. So; unless you're going to argue that a 5.56 rifle should ONLY shoot 5.56 ammo and NOT .223 ammo; saying that it isn't chambered for steel doesn't cut it. Now; the steel case don't have the same expansion properties as brass. As such, there are the carbon/powder blowback that cause a dirtier/grittier chamber. But if .223 ammo ISN'T MIL-SPEC, and is totally condoned to be shot out of a 5.56 mil-spec barrel/chamber; then i have no idea what your point is about steel case ammo not being mil-spec. Neither is .223 ammo.

 

[Foxtrot]

My Bushmaster is marked "CAL .223-5.56MM"

I have seen the M&P15 marked "CAL 5.56 MM"

My M&P is marked 5.56

The .233-5.56 just tells us what we already know that you can shoot .223 in a 5.56 mil-spec chamber, its not an indication of a modified chamber. The modifed are done to account for the steel case in a mil-spec 5.56 chamber. Thats a pretty standard marking for BushMaster, the chamber is actually 5.56 mil-spec though at least on some of their models i've looked at in the past. But you reminded me of something I did want to take a look at from BushMaster.

 

[christcorp]

My M&P is marked 5.56

The .233-5.56 just tells us what we already know that you can shoot .223 in a 5.56 mil-spec chamber, its not an indication of a modified chamber. The modifed are done to account for the steel case in a mil-spec 5.56 chamber. Thats a pretty standard marking for BushMaster, the chamber is actually 5.56 mil-spec though at least on some of their models i've looked at in the past. But you reminded me of something I did want to take a look at from BushMaster.

You're going to have to list the rifles that are chambered for 5.56 and are modified specifically for steel case ammo. And once you list them; tell me how you know they've been modified for steel case ammo.

And then, assuming you are correct about these specially modified chambers that are set up to accept steel case ammo; what exactly would be the problem with that??? Does it make the 5.56 ammo you do shoot LESS accurate? Something negative to the .223 ammo??? So; while you're at it, list which ones have been "Modified" and also what the difference in dimensions are between a brass .223 and a steel case .223. Also, the difference in dimensions between brass 5.56 and steel case 5.56. (Yes, there is such thing as steel case 5.56).

Anyway; it's obvious that S&W M&P15 MUST have a modified chamber, considering most of them never have any issues shooting steel case ammo. And it's obvious that many Bushmasters must not have a modified chamber, because many of the individuals who say they've had issues with steel case ammo also mention their Bushmasters. Obviously not all. Anyway; if you know for a fact that certain chambers are modified, I'd like to see a list of which manufacturers do this, and what the spec difference is. Especially the spec difference between the actual ammo itself. I know the difference between .223 and 5.56. I want to know the difference in dimensions between brass .223 and steel case .223.

 

[Foxtrot]

You're going to have to list the rifles that are chambered for 5.56 and are modified specifically for steel case ammo. And once you list them; tell me how you know they've been modified for steel case ammo.

And then, assuming you are correct about these specially modified chambers that are set up to accept steel case ammo; what exactly would be the problem with that??? Does it make the 5.56 ammo you do shoot LESS accurate? Something negative to the .223 ammo??? So; while you're at it, list which ones have been "Modified" and also what the difference in dimensions are between a brass .223 and a steel case .223. Also, the difference in dimensions between brass 5.56 and steel case 5.56. (Yes, there is such thing as steel case 5.56).

Anyway; it's obvious that S&W M&P15 MUST have a modified chamber, considering most of them never have any issues shooting steel case ammo. And it's obvious that many Bushmasters must not have a modified chamber, because many of the individuals who say they've had issues with steel case ammo also mention their Bushmasters. Obviously not all. Anyway; if you know for a fact that certain chambers are modified, I'd like to see a list of which manufacturers do this, and what the spec difference is. Especially the spec difference between the actual ammo itself. I know the difference between .223 and 5.56. I want to know the difference in dimensions between brass .223 and steel case .223.

You still don't get the point - ITS THE SEALING UPON FIRING OF THE STEEL CASE THAT MAKES IT NOT FIRE IN SPEC FOR THE MIL-SPEC 5.56 CHAMBER - NOT The SIZE OF THE ROUND. THE MIL-SPEC 5.56 CHAMBER TOLERANCES EXPECT A SEAL WHEN FIRED AND THAT COMES FROM THE BRASS CASE BECAUSE IT EXPANDS TO THE EXPECTED TOLERANCES AND THE STEEL DOESN'T - THATS WHY THE EXCESS BLOW BACK HAPPENS AS THAT SEAL IS NOT THERE - EVEN BRASS .223 SEALS BETTER - DUH!.

Your demanding and ordering now? Are you off your medication or something?

Now your simply outside the bounds of discussion. I'm not going to continue to participate in what seems to be a need just for you to argue instead of discuss, trying, it seems, to purposely to miss the point and twist things around. Your obviously too attached to steel case ammo and this has obviously become some sort of emotional crusade or issue for you, but what ever it is you are wayyyyyy to attached to this subject. Maybe you have stock in one of the ammo manufacturers or something. Go shoot your steel case, be happy with it, even if it is not firing in spec for the mil-spec 5.56 chamber.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Enough....

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