Which Clays?

[ColColt]

OK-I keep reading here and there about how good "Clays" is for some loads for the .45 so, I thought I'd check into it since I never used it before. That's when the confusion set in.

Hodgdon's website shows three different powders with the name "Clays" in it. Clays, Universal Clays and International Clays although only two that they really specify for the .45 is either Clays or Universal Clays.

Speer's #14 manual indicates U. Clays...not "Clays" so which is it everyone likes so well? All I've ever seen in post are thumbs up for "clays".

 

[haggis]

Clays is useful as a fast pistol powder, while Universal has pistol loads about like Unique.

Never use International as a pistol powder. It has an unpredictable pressure curve, and Hodgdon specifically warns against its use in handguns.

All three powders are excellent in shotguns.


Buck

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Just plain Clays is the powder most reloaders are speaking of when they are loading the .45 Auto. Like said above, Universal Clays or just Universal (the same powder) was developed to mimic Unique but with better metering and it's cleaner.

 

[ColColt]

Universal seem to show better velocity for the 185-200 gr bullets. I don't shoot LSWC's much anymore. Just fishing to see what other powders besides Unique and AA#5 would also be as good or better. HS-6 looks like another possibility. There's a gun show this weekend and I need to pick up some more powder and wanted to try something besides my two old standbys. I understand Alliant has "cleaned up" Unique a little but all I have currently is some older Unique.

 

[dla]

OK-I keep reading here and there about how good "Clays" is for some loads for the .45 so, I thought I'd check into it since I never used it before. That's when the confusion set in.

Hodgdon's website shows three different powders with the name "Clays" in it. Clays, Universal Clays and International Clays although only two that they really specify for the .45 is either Clays or Universal Clays.

Speer's #14 manual indicates U. Clays...not "Clays" so which is it everyone likes so well? All I've ever seen in post are thumbs up for "clays".

Clays is great for low to mid-range loads. Universal Clays is good for loads pushing towards max. International Clays doesn't work real well as it is harder to ignite - especially when cold (I've used it in 45acp).

Clays is a big fluffy funky green flake that makes it easier to spot a double or squib. Just don't try to push it, stay within published data. It is also very clean burning and low flash.

 

[ColColt]

Appreciate the good advice here. I like Unique except for it's somewhat dirty nature so U. clays me be a viable option but I'm still going to try the HS-6...doesn't hurt to experiment a bit and, I need to blow some money at the gun show so...

 

[cp1969]

I've used 4 lb of Universal Clays. I cannot see that it burns any cleaner than Unique. It's a good powder but it leaves residue, too.

 

[dla]

Appreciate the good advice here. I like Unique except for it's somewhat dirty nature so U. clays me be a viable option but I'm still going to try the HS-6...doesn't hurt to experiment a bit and, I need to blow some money at the gun show so...

HS6 is OK, but (a) it doesn't burn well until you get the pressure up(high-end loads) and (b) it is extremely flashy in 45acp.

So if you want warmish loads and really like bright fireballs - HS6 is the powder for you.

 

[robctwo]

I've used Clays in .45 ACP for the lighter recoil loads from 155 gr to 230 gr. bullets. Universal is my go to powder for bowling pins. 230 gr and 250 gr bullets loaded pretty fast, with very manageable recoil.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Like said above, HS-6 is a dirty powder when not loaded up near the top end of the pressure range. HS-6 works much better in the .45 Colt than the .45 Auto IMO.

 

[MTKTM]

Back in the 80s and 90s I was shooting a lot of IPSC/USPSA matches. I tried several different powders (and also ended up buying a Dillon 550B for high-volume handloading) and ultimately ended up settling on Universal Clays for all of my fairly maximum 45ACP and 40S&W loads, loaded many thousands of both. I find it to also be a good powder for 38, 357, and it'd also be good for mid-range loads in 41 & 44 Magnums too. I found it to be cleaner than Unique, although as cp1969 commented, it does leave residue. I've yet to find a powder that doesn't! I also found that it meters quite accurately. I like it.

 

[Harrison]

I have had good luck with Universal in 38/357. I started using H Titegroup in 45 ACP/AR with lead bullets. It burns extremely clean, little residue in the case, low recoil, meters accurateley and gives me all the velocity I need or want.

 

[ColColt]

Here's one of the problems I didn't mention. Curious about what powders Hodgdon offered today, as I thought about what I had read about Clays, I went to their website. The show a 200 gr JHP load with U. Clays as 5.8 as minimum and a max load of 6.2 for a velocity of 949 fps. However, the Speer #14 manual shows for that same bullet and powder 6.3 as minimum and 7.0 as max with a velocity of 967 fps.

Who do you believe?Hodgdon's website's max load with this weight bullet is Speer's starting load.

Now, the difference in Hodgdon and Speer for HS-6 is just a few tenths of a grain difference but way off on U. Clays. They, of course, don't list a load for Unique it being an Alliant powder.

 

[johngalt]

I usually go by my Speer (#7, 8, and 14) or Hornady (7th ed) manuals. I think Hogden's data is wildly optimistic. They claim much higher velocities with much lower charges than you are likely to see in a real gun, since they use pressure test barrels.

Speer and Hornady use real guns for their data.

 

[ColColt]

There's discrepancies in the #9 and #14 manuals for HS-6 powder as well. They don't list Clays in the #9 manual so, I looked at HS-6, another powder I'd considered and saw where the #9 manual recommended 7.8-8.3 (max) for the 200 gr bullet and the #14 manual recommended 8.5-9.5(max) grs. What's a guy to believe? I suppose just get the latest and greatest manual and chunk the oldies.

 

[MDaly]

Call me 800-622-4366 between 7:00 am and 5:30 pm central time, Monday thru Thursday. We can discuss the powders and their uses. I will get your address and mail you data for both Clays and Universal as well as anything else you think you need data for.

Mike Daly
Hodgdon Powder
[email protected]

 

[ColColt]

Good deal-I'll do that...thanks.

 

[epj]

Mike, do you have data that is different from that which is listed on the Hodgdon website? If so, could that info be made public? I load 9mm, 10mm, .38, .40 and .45 ACP almost exclusively with Clays and Universal Clays. Exception would probably be 10mm, but Universal would probably work in it as well.

 

[MDaly]

There is nothing else developed for Clays or Universal in handguns that is not already on the web site. We try to put up everything that makes an efficient load that is within the SAAMI standards. We have 4 guns shooting every day just to keep up with acceptance testing for each lot of powder, R&D, new product development and new data development. When we acquired IMR they were way behind on new products, new cartridges and updating old data. We have been working very hard to get that data set in good shape but there is much left to do. When we took over Winchester Propellants we had much to do there to get caught up so we have been busy with data that should have been around for years yet was lacking. Job security you know.

 

[jaysouth]

There is nothing else developed for Clays or Universal in handguns that is not already on the web site. We try to put up everything that makes an efficient load that is within the SAAMI standards. We have 4 guns shooting every day just to keep up with acceptance testing for each lot of powder, R&D, new product development and new data development. When we acquired IMR they were way behind on new products, new cartridges and updating old data. We have been working very hard to get that data set in good shape but there is much left to do. When we took over Winchester Propellants we had much to do there to get caught up so we have been busy with data that should have been around for years yet was lacking. Job security you know.

Thanks for taking the time to share your inside professional knowledge with us.

Us old timers can remember when most powder and component companies were less than forthcoming about some of their products.

Keep us the good work with Clays and HP-38. My favorite powders.

By the way, what is the Hodgston equivalent of winchester WST?

Thanks again.

 

[45FMJoe]

There is nothing else developed for Clays or Universal in handguns that is not already on the web site. We try to put up everything that makes an efficient load that is within the SAAMI standards. We have 4 guns shooting every day just to keep up with acceptance testing for each lot of powder, R&D, new product development and new data development. When we acquired IMR they were way behind on new products, new cartridges and updating old data. We have been working very hard to get that data set in good shape but there is much left to do. When we took over Winchester Propellants we had much to do there to get caught up so we have been busy with data that should have been around for years yet was lacking. Job security you know.

Out of curiosity, is that why the website showed 5.0 gr of Win 231 being the max load for 230 gr LRN at 850 FPS when that's not even close? I noticed today the data changed to 5.3 gr being max load at 834 FPS which is accurate, I think.

P.S. Thanks for updating it. Now I don't feel bad loading at 5.5-5.6 gr. to achieve a true 850 FPS with 230 gr LRN since my cases and primers show no signs of any pressure problems.

 

[Harrison]

What's a guy to believe? I suppose just get the latest and greatest manual and chunk the oldies.

You believe what your particular gun tells you, not a reloading manual. They are just a rough guide to get you started. The different manuals are all done with different firearms from yours. Some use test barrels, some use real guns. The lot # of the powder they used will be different from your lot #, and bullets will vary, as will primers and brass. No two barrels and chambers are exactly the same.

If you are only going to use mild to mid-range loads, go by the manual. Otherwise, take the time to work a load up in your particular firearm, with the powder primers and bullets YOU will be using. Start low and work your way up.

 

[ColColt]

Start low and work your way up.

There lies the problem with some powders and bullet combinations, however. One bullet weight/powder from one source(Hodgdon) shows a maximum charge that's another sources(Speer #14 manual) beginning charge. Case in point is the start/max load listing for the 200 gr JHP.

I did notice on Hodgdon's website that the 200 gr JHP listing was probably for the old Speer 200 gr "Flying Ashtray" and not the current Gold Dot ammo specified in Speer's manual. Why? The seating depth is 1.155" according to Hodgdon's website and that's the seating depth I had logged for the Flying Ashtray years ago using a then new round from Lawman ammo as reference. Speer's manual for their 200 gr Gold Dot Hollow Point is 1.200". I don't know if this makes much difference or not in one of the discrepancies I discovered with some of the powder start/max recommendations.

Speer's manual indicates a start charge of 6.2 gr for the 200 gr GDHP using Universal and Hodgdon's list this as max. Again, perhaps it's due in part to the difference in bullet design for this weight and the seating depth.