Which Model 3 Do I Have?

[1900colt]

I have had this for several years and don't know what I really have. I believe it is a #3 of some sort. Any help with caliber and date of MFG would be great!
Thanks,
-Mark

 

[opoefc]

Welcome to the Forum. Your S&W appears to be a New Model No. 3, produced in the first year of production, 1878. Caliber should be .44 S&W Russian. Ed.

 

[lebomm]

Forgive me, Ed, but with a patent date of 1880 on the rib, how could this pistol have been produced in 1878?

Larry

 

[1900colt]

True, it does have an 1880 pat. date on the barrel... also how do I tell if it's 44-40 or 44 Russian?

And thanks for the welcome, this is my first thread on this forum

 

[GHJ]

If it is an early New Model No. 3 as its number suggests it should have a slightly longer extractor housing under the barrel with a rack and gear extractor cam teeth visible from the front. Later ones had a simpler pivoted hook cam.
See Jinks' History of S&W, page 97 and compare photos on pages 98 and 100 (in my revised 10th aniversary edition copy.)

GHJ

 

[dltvette]

I think the barrel patent date stampings, match the ones on the 1st model .44 Double Action.
Dave

 

[deadin]

Check the cylinder length. If it is 1 9/16ths it more than likely a NM #3 Frontier nominally in 44/40. However 786 Frontiers were converted to 44 Russian for export to Japan. Single action Frontiers are a pretty scarce gun with only 2,072 made and numbered in their own series , 1 to 2072. ( and the 44/40 version was fewer because of the Japan group.) Check the serial numbers on the barrel extension and cylinder to make sure it's not a parts gun. I don't know if trying a 44/40 in the cylinder to see if it fit would tell you anything or not. (I have a 44/40 DA, but no 44 Russian to compare it to.)
I think an investment in a letter may be in order.

 

[1900colt]

Checked the numbers...

Frame is 614, cyc. 614
The barrel has two sets of numbers
left side of latch 614... right side 3016

Would this be the wrong barrel then on an early frame?

I don't have a tape measure handy to check the cyc. length.

Thanks!
-Mark

 

[1900colt]

I don't see or feel a "ridge" like you are supposed to with the 44 Russian. If this is a true way to tell caliber, I'm kinda leaning towards 44-40 caliber. ..

What are the other opinions?

 

[deadin]

The barrel has two sets of numbers
left side of latch 614... right side 3016

Now that's a poser!! I've never run across anything similar.
Ed..??? Any possibility the factory could/would have done something like this?? (A replacement barrel off the line, numbered to match the frame but left the original number in place?)

 

[1900colt]

A little more info and question. ..

The finish and wear on the barrel vs frame is a prefect match. .. the barrel has the same color and wear as the frame. Not saying I'm 100% correct, but if it were put on at a later date it almost surly was done a very very long time ago.

If it were a "new frontier" would the 1880 date be correct? I read in Standard Catalog of smith & wesson on page 103-104 that this may have been done on late production guns.

Is the new frontier considered a late production gun since it was made from 1885-1908 according to the book I have?

 

[Masterpiece]

However 786 Frontiers were converted to 44 Russian for export to Japan.
I think an investment in a letter may be in order.

Frame is 614, cyc. 614. The barrel has two sets of numbers left side of latch 614... right side 3016.

1900colt,

I see I'm a bit late getting here, but I'm going to go out on a limb & state I believe...judging by what I see & have read so far...this to be a Single-Action NM#3 Frontier although I do have to agree with Dean (deadin) having the Barrel stamped with Two Serial No.'s is somewhat puzzling...& also as he stated...a Factory Letter is most definitely in order to verify it being a "Righteous" NM#3 Single-Action Frontier!!

There is one more thing to check that hasn't been mentioned as yet...Have you by chance checked the underside of the Barrel Latch to see what Serial No. is stamped there?? If not, why don't you do so & let us know!! Also see if there's a Hammer Interlock Tab...(See Attached Pics)...on the Latch as Single-Action's "Do" & Dbl-Action's "Do Not"!! If it has a Matching Serial No.(614)...along with a Hammer Interlock Tab...I'd have to think the Barrel is likely correct and was fitted with a 6 1/2" Model #3 Dbl-Action Barrel with 1880 Patents...referring to the SCSW Reference you mentioned...already serialized for a Dbl.-Action & then stamped with your Revolver's Serial No. when it was originally assembled!! Now why the Original No. (3016) wasn't removed...or defaced when doing so...I'm sorry to say I do not have a clue, but that Serial No. is in the "Correct" Right Side location where all I have owned...or observed...have been found on #3 Model S&W's...Single or Dbl-Action!! Not on the Left Side where yours is stamped...Very Unusual!!

Also...just to make note of it for you...there is also another even Later Barrel Address that had "No" Patent Dates included whatsoever...just reads "Smith & Wesson Springfield,Mass.U.S.A." used on "Both" Late Issue Single & Dbl-Action Barrels most often with the Cartridge Designation towards the Rear Left Side of the Barrel!!

I also checked my list of Frontiers "Converted" to 44 Russian for the Japanese & Your Revolver's Serial No. isn't among those so I'm expecting it to have a 1 9/16" Length Cylinder chambered for the 44 WCF (44/40) Cartridge since you've stated you neither see or feel a shelf and/or ridge in the Chamber...Just My Two Cents Worth!!

 

[1900colt]

Are the numbers actually on the latch?

The barrel serial numbers I was referring to ate the ones you see when you lift the latch up. They are not on the latch itself (never looked and I will when I get home)

I'm also 99%sure it has the tab too... is this correct for the single actions?

I do want to get a letter for the gun, but I want to have a good idea which one I'm getting a letter for. Don't want to spend the money for a wrong version since all the serial numbers are not consuctive.

If there is anything else I can do to help identify which one this is I will do it once I get home from work.

I picked this up along with two other smiths from a lady who's husband passed. The others ones are a .32 Double Action and a Model of 1891.

I'm mostly into airguns, and got a good deal I think on these so I bought them... And of course. .. got all the S&W airguns

Thanks again for the help, I think I'm going to hang out on this forum for some time!

 

[Masterpiece]

The barrel serial numbers I was referring to are the ones you see when you lift the latch up. They are not on the latch itself.

I'm also 99% sure it has the tab too... is this correct for the single actions?

If there is anything else I can do to help identify which one this is I will do it once I get home from work.

1900colt,

I assumed the Serial No.'s you gave us for the Barrel "Were" on the Barrel itself...Not the Latch...that's the one I said we you need to check to see what Serial No. is stamped there...(614) or (3016)!!

As far as having an Interlock Tab on the Latch...if there's one present...it is the Correct Barrel Latch for a NM#3 Single Action!!

The only other thing I can think of that may help is to post a clear photo of inside the Chamber itself & measure the Overall Length of the Cylinder...1 7/16" or 1 9/16"...We'll continue on from there!!

 

[MagnumForce44]

The suspense is killing me!

 

[lebomm]

1900colt;
The two .44 chambers have different appearances when viewed from the rear with gun broken open. The .44 Russian has a single shoulder, or step, while the .44-40 has two, one for the cartridge shoulder, and one between cartridge neck and chamber throat.
Hope this helps.

Larry

 

[Skeetr57]

Strange things are seen on some of these old S&Ws! I have a NM#3 target, SN 1865 in .32-44 caliber. It is nickle plated, and looks like a brand new gun. I bought it as being refinished, but since it looked so original and didn't have a star stamp anywhere, I always wondered. I had an opportunity to show it to Roy Jenks some years ago, and asked him about the originality. He examined it closely, then removed the grips, and with the use of a magnifying glass found a rework date of 6-56 stamped in tiny numerals on the left grip frame. Further examination revealed that the barrel was numbered 508, but the latch and cylinder had the same number as the frame. What is really interesting is that he knew the location of NM#3 Target SN 508. It is a special order 5" barrel gun. Apparently when the order for the 5" gun came in, the factory took the 6" barrel off of a completed gun and replaced it with the 5" barrel and shipped the gun out, leaving the already numbered barrel on hand. At some point in time, the barrel was used to replace the barrel on 1865. The work on the gun in 1956 involved re-plating the frame,cylinder and barrel, re-bluing the front sight and latch and re-case hardening the hammer, trigger and trigger guard. It may have also involved the barrel replacement, but there is no way to tell at this time. Something similar could have happened with the gun under discussion.

 

[opoefc]

For whatever reason, I believe the barrel is an early replacement, using a barrel taken from a later revolver, and while not common, S&W did sometimes number a replacement barrel with the original serial number of the gun and not remove a number already stamped on the barrel. The caliber is easy to tell by trying a .44-40 round in the cylinder. If it goes, and the cylinder can close, then it's a 44-40. Ed.

 

[Skeetr57]

On the top break revolvers, removing metal to remove the barrel serial number would affect the fit of the barrel to the frame, I think, which is probably why they didn't remove the number.

 

[1900colt]

Here Is What I Found...

Barrel Latch #614

Cyc. 1 9/16...I did drop a few 44-40 rounds in it and the gun closes fine with them too.

Barrel is 6 inches long