Which Model 3 Do I Have?

[Masterpiece]

Barrel is 6 inches long

1900colt,

Well given the new info as to the Cylinder Length, Matching (614) Barrel Latch w/Interlock Tab & being chambered for 44/40...I'd say it's time to request a Factory Letter to confirm it's a NM#3 Frontier!! Also...to save you the trouble of finding the Link to download & print out the Request Form...I've attached the Link below!!

http://www.theswca.org/forms/Letter_request_form.doc

One thing to make sure of when you're filling out the Request Form is to specifically make mention of the Model as being a NM#3 Frontier Single Action!! You should also make sure to state it as having a 6" Barrel as that's a somewhat Uncommon Barrel Length for a NM#3 Frontier Single Action...Although "Not" so much for a Model #3 44 Dbl.-Action Frontier!! That way...if the Letter confirms the 6" Barrel Length...it should clear up the speculation as the Barrel being a Replacement or Originally Shipped in that configuration...even though it has the Dbl.-Serial Numbered Barrel with the 1880 Patent Date...Good Luck!!

 

[deadin]

In your letter be sure to mention the "other" serial number and its location.
If, as suspected, your barrel was donated by a DA Frontier it would be interesting to know what happened to the rest of it. Open on the books (i.e. never shipped), special order with a longer length (They could shorten a barrel but never did figure out how to stretch one...), Ordered with two barrels and then cancelled one, or what?? Maybe Roy will throw in a little more info. (He enjoys a mystery.)

 

[1900colt]

I really want to thank everyone for their help.
I had no idea what this thing was and assumed it was just another old beater top break gun. The other guns I bought at the same time I still have along with the other S&W's

I will be filling out that Form today and have it in the mail asap.

I assume then the new frontier model is somewhat scarce correct?
If so, who can fix it? The action does not work. Hammer cocks, but cylinder does not rotate.

Once the letter comes back, and if the gun is correct, I would like to get it working as long as it is worth doing.

I'll post some pictures of the other smiths in a different thread later too

 

[1900colt]

Request for the papers from S&W are in the mail

I'll update once it arrives...any idea on how long it takes?

Thanks for the link too...that made life easy!

-Mark

 

[Masterpiece]

In your letter be sure to mention the "other" serial number and its location.
Maybe Roy will throw in a little more info. (He enjoys a mystery.)

Dean,

I'm not so sure including the "Other" Serial No. may have been such a good idea as I've had a few of those "Ideas" backfire over the years...Ha!!~Ha!! I wonder what info he included as he didn't say & it's a bit late now given the Request is already on it's way...Hmmm!!

Truth be told, about the "Only" time I can remember Roy ever including any "Favorable" add'l info concerning Different Serial-Numbered Parts on NM#3's was a time I "Lettered" a NM#3 that I suspected shipped to Japan that had a Mismatched Cylinder & he made note in the Letter the Revolver with that Serial No. was also included in the same Shipment as the one I inquired about!!

I do have to agree though at times he does like a mystery, but now that he's swamped with requests I wonder if he'll go the extra mile to check into the other Serial Number...that is if the OP make reference to it in his request...Time Will Tell!!

 

[deadin]

I've had a couple of letters where he added a little extra info, but if he's really swamped, he can just ignore it.

My biggest disappointment concerning a letter is when I received the one for a 44/40 DA Frontier I had picked up locally from the family of the original owner. It was mentioned that Granpa was a SA War vet. Then it was mentioned that he was a Rough Rider. You can imagine just how hard I was breathing by the time I got out of there.
Then the letter came back the the gun was shipped to Monkey Wards in Chicago in 1900. It turns out Granpa was a Rough Rider, but not Teddy's Rough Riders. He was a member of Grigsby's Rough Riders (actually called Grigsby's Cowboys) They were another unit that was formed from the same area as the1st Volunteer Cav. and never got out of the States before the war was over.
I did track down that the gun originally belonged to the vet's father who probably bought it mail order when he moved the family to Western South Dakota in 1900.

 

[Masterpiece]

I assume then the new frontier model is somewhat scarce correct?

1900colt,

To answer your question about NM#3 44 Frontier Single Actions being "Somewhat Scarce"...Yes, Very Much So!! Especially since over 1/3 of the Total Production...(786 of the claimed 2072 produced)...were converted to 44 Russian for the Japanese...so I think most would agree they fall into the "Somewhat Scarce" Category!!

 

[Masterpiece]

Then the letter came back the the gun was shipped to Monkey Wards in Chicago in 1900.

Dean,

I know exactly where you're coming from as far as "Disappointing" Letters...been there quite a few times myself!!

Also interesting you brought up that particular one ending up being shipped to "Monkey" Wards in Chicago as I've had more than a few 44 DA & 44 DA Frontiers over the years being shipped there as well!! And if memory serves, one of them shipped there in 1900 too...March or April I believe!! You don't by chance remember the approx. Serial No. Range and/or Ship Date do you...Just Curious?? I believe the one I'm thinking of was in the Late 9900 Range...maybe I still have a copy of the Letter...have to look!!

 

[1900colt]

Regarding the letter info I included:
barrel length
serial numbers
finish I think was nickel (very very small traces of it)
I also included both barrel numbers and mentioned how and where they were stamped.
lastly I mentioned this thread and included my phone number in case he has a question that I might be able to answer or he can find the answer in this thread.

I am really hoping it was a special order 6 inch gun, resulting in the DA barrel being installed instead of a new barrel being made for the gun. .. or at the very least, a factory replacement. If it were a replacement, it had to be pretty close to when the gun was new.

The big question, "if" it comes back as correct. .. should I get it restored or just back into working condition? And who could do the work?

Thanks,
-Mark

 

[rsl]

?

For Gods sake please don't restore or refinish.. Getting it working is another thing.. Good luck on your letter.

 

[deadin]

Masterpiece,

#11808, shipped 12/31/1900 M.W.Chicago.
(I like guns that I can track the history on, so I still have it. )

 

[Masterpiece]

#11808, shipped 12/31/1900 M.W.Chicago.
(I like guns that I can track the history on, so I still have it.)

Dean,

Thanks, although I'm pretty sure the one I referred to was quite a bit lower in Serial No. & Ship Date...just thought they may have been close!! Also...like yourself...I liked to keep track of the ones with history as well whenever possible & even though I would've liked to have kept them all..."History or Not"...I've found over the years you have to..."Thin The Herd"...every once and a while of the "Not-So-Special" ones or they'd be stacked to the ceiling by now...Ha!!~Ha!!

I did almost always make copies of those that had "Letters" for my records even after they were gone & when I get a chance I'll dig that one out to see when it shipped now that you've peaked my interest...Thanks Again!!

 

[mmaher94087]

"For Gods sake please don't restore or refinish.. Getting it working is another thing.. Good luck on your letter." I agree. To restore it to factory new is almost cost prohibitive and the resale value would be approximately one-half the value as it is. Refinished antique revolvers are shunned by collectors; Cowboy Action Shooters are a different breed and may welcome the restoration.

As for " getting it working", there are a few options. If it is possible to determine the problem we'd know which way to go. My guess is either a broken spring for the "hand" (that thing that revolves the cylinder) or the hand is chipped or broken. Jack First may have the part. One would need to remove the side plate to investigate. The other option would be a competent gunsmith that is familiar with the New Model #3. David Chicoine at oldwestgunsmith.com is such a gunsmith.

If it were mine, I'd repair the workings and leave the finish alone; that's part of the history of the revolver. Mike #283

 

[1900colt]

Sent off an email to Dave asking about shipping this to him for repair.

The problems that I see are:
half cock does not work
the part that pops up to lock the cylinder in place does not work.
The part that rotates the cylinder is chipped off and won't engage the cylinder.

How can one get so many parts broke in one gun? At what point did the owner decide it was not worth shooting anymore?

The hammer cocks and trigger works though!

 

[deadin]

Nothing there that can't be fixed.... Have you been into the gun? It could be that all of these symptoms may be caused by years and years of crud building up in the innards. (If you can actually see broken parts, that's a different story. )
Then it sounds like someone tried to force the cylinder to turn when it didn't want to. That would account for the damaged bolt and hand. As for the half-cock, the little lip that captures the sear nose is fairly fragile and could break without much effort.

Also be aware that Dave is wayyy behind on repairs, so you may or may not hear from him anytime soon.....(I understand there have been some family issues that have been taking up a lot of his time....)

 

[Wiregrassguy]

You are going to put many more $$ into it than it is worth. Why not put it in a shadow box and display it?

 

[deadin]

You are going to put many more $$ into it than it is worth

If it letters as an original SA Frontier, I wouldn't bet on that........

 

[1900colt]

For those that may be interested, I finally was able to photo the barrel serial numbers today with my girlfriends help

 

[1900colt]

S&W letter arrived... It is a factory 6 inch barrel, with S&W using the DA barrel to fill a special order. At least we know it is correct with the double stamp and that is how it was shipped

 

[Dosgatos]

S&W letter arrived... It is a factory 6 inch barrel, with S&W using the DA barrel to fill a special order. At least we know it is correct with the double stamp and that is how it was shipped

Apparently this was a common way the factory used up barrels. I have a .32 DA 4th with a .32 SA barrel that has two serial numbers, one on each side. One of them matches the frame, latch, and cylinder.